Dynamic Hair and Toon Override

Diomede

My goal is to have a toon-like effect (outlines) and Carrara dynamic hair without having to process each image individually in PS or similar.  I found that I could get close to the look I want in general by increasing the ambient light in the scene tab to get a flatter look.  To get the outline, I used the Toon filter in the scene tab, but then for each element used "toon override" in the effects tab for that object to eliminate the toon but keep the outline.  In the attached, under toon override for M4 actor level, I have reduced the toon effect to zero but kept the line outline at 100%.  In the scene toon filter I reduced the ouline from 2 to 1.  The result is to get the M4 skin shader, but with flatter light and an outline.  The result is a modified toon look that I think is close to what I want.  So far, so good. 

 

However, when I attach dynamic hair for M4 (Everyman hair by Naomi  http://www.daz3d.com/everyman-hair,) and use toon override, the toon override doesn't work.  The dynamic hair  fails to appear.  I could use prop hair but I'd like to preserve dynamics.  Thoughts, suggestions, alternatives, etc. welcome.

 

wgdjohn

Could this be because of the hair being Carrara's Dynamic hair?

Diomede

Correct, the function "exclude toon" does not work when applied to dynamic hair for some reason.  Am intending to exclude from toon anyway, but using the filter along with exclude toon is not working.  Hoping for work around.

 

This example might help explain what I am trying to do.  Fred Estaire once danced on screen with toons.  Gene Kelley once danced on screen with toons.  Julie Andrews and Dick Van Dyke danced on screen with toons.  So, Carrara has the cool feature.  In the "scene" tab, you can use the Filter called Toon! part III. You can edit this to reduce the size of the outline from 2 to 1.  Then, for each object in your scene, you can go to its "effects" tab and choose whether to include or exclude it from the Toon! III effect.  The default is include.  Furthermore, if you choose to exclude from the toon effect, you can make that exclusion only partial for the outline and for the flat shading (toon).  So, what I am trying to do is get a composite toon for my scene in which everything will have a thin outline (scene toon filter but reduce toon effect along with high ambient light) like a cartoon, and I want to use dynamic hair.  Dynamic hair does not work in the Tonn! III filter but I already knew that.  My intention was to exclude the dynamic hair from the toon using the effects tab and thus make it work.  Hope that made sense.

 

So, here is a quick illusrative render of a V4 with prop hair and happy camper clothes all excluded from the toon effect.  She is dancing with a toon wolf in a room for which the toon effect is on full throttle.  Gene Kelly is dancing with Jerry (I think) from Tom and Jerry.

Diomede

So, hopefully, the previous post demonstrated combining a "photoreal" and "toon" figure in same render.  So, what I am trying to do is use the Toon III scene setting just to give everything an outline but exclude the "toon shading" using each object's effects tab.  Then, use high ambient ligt to get back some (but not all) of the flat shading.  Plus, I was hoping to be able to sneak the dynamic hair back into the Toon !!! scene by using the hair's effects tab to exclude it from the Toon effect.

 

Diomede

For a single still, you can use the multipass for volumetric primitive to get the Carrara dynamic hair, bring it in Photoshop or whatever, and add it to a toon or NPR render.  Really trying to find a way to combine dynamic hair with toon and NPR within Carrara so that each image doesn't have to be edited.  Here is M4 in the puck outfit and dynamic hair.  Rendered once as a toon (dynamic hair doesn't work), and once photoreal with the volumetric primitive pass.  Used photoshop to add the dynamic hair to the toon render.

 

Some heavy hitters have been on the forum recently, and no suggestions.  Starting to think I have a hopeless ambition. 

DesertDude

Hi diomede, trying to recreate your issue here and, not having any experience with the Scene Toon filter, nor the override settings, I'm not much of any help. From just quickly playing I can't even get an "outline" on a seperate hair object...and get other strange results with a character with hair with half the hair rendering and half not depending on where it falls on the background...with various override settings. Sorry for confusion, still experimenting here and I right now I have to go for my walk to the grocery store but will return and continue to tinker.

Really looking forward to getting back, since I have never used the Toon filter before it just looks like soooo much fun!! Thanks for introducing us!

Diomede

Here is a sample workflow.

1 - load a figure in a new scene  (add any accessories likea set, background, clothes or whatever)

2 - add dynamic hair to the figure and adjust to taste

3 - in scene tab, go to filter and choose Toon, edit and reduce line width from 2 to 1.

4 - select the figure's model (or actor).  Go to the Effects tab.  Check toon override.  Reduce toon from 100 to 0.  Leave outline at 100.

5 - select the hair.  Go to effects tab.  Check toon override.  Reduce both to zero.

6 - test render.  At higher resolution will get a little bit of an effect for the hair, but essentially worthless so far.

Here is an example for some Michael 3 (way back machine) Santa Claus content hiding in my browser tray.  Tried to add a beard to M3 and fur to the coat.

 

mmoir

Diomede , 

Ya Toon may work with dynamic hair in Carrara, I haven't tried it but it is worth looking into.   The link to the program https://bitbucket.org/zgock/yatoon/wiki/Reference

DesertDude

Diomede, okay, I can reproduce the problem. I tried a few flailing solutions, like Grouping, some Render Room settings like Maximum Ray Depth, Filter Sharpness, Full Ray Tracing...also tried "Toon! part III" under Algorithm set to custom inputing ridiculous values just to see...all to no avail. This looks suspicoulsy similar to a problem I had in the latest Carrara challenge where overlapping fur rendered with an alpha channel got strangely "clipped" (see second image). Sorry, not very helpful...

PhilW

Hair does not show up in the depth map either, and in multilayer rendering it is included as a volumetric effect.  I think because it is a render time effect that while it looks fine for normal renders, it is not being captured by whatever does the toon processing. I do not think that there is a way around this, you may have to find another alternative suich as using modelled hair.  I think you mentioned that this would lose dynamics, but if you have the VWD plugin, it has a hair mode as well as doing dynamic clothing, so you can apply dynamics to modelled hair.

Diomede

Thanks, Desertdude, Phil, and Mmoir.  I will have to download YAToon and give it a try.  Should have done that long ago anyway. 

PhilW

Digital Carvers Guild also do a Toon plugin, I'm not really into toon rendering so I don't know if that would be any better (and to be honest, I doubt it will work so don't get your hopes up), but there is an evaluation mode so that you can try it for free to see.

Headwax

just tested Toon!Pro

if you change the hair shader to Toon!Pro cel type - no joy I'm sorry. Hair doesnt appear in render

the out line part only gives the skull cap, not the hair

Diomede

Thanks for taking a look, Headwax. Disappointed.  I prefer unrealism.  My intended audience knows this is a fantasy when the 6-limbed crab man shoots lasers at Brash, and the audience is either along for the ride, or not.  A combination of Carrara dynamic hair with a comics outline and relatively flat (but not completely flat) shading was close to what I have in my head that wants to get out.  Can get there with use of the volumetric primitive pass and post work.  OK for stills.  May pursue that for my comics.  Just how much self-loathing would I have to deal with to apply the volumetric primitive pass to every frame if I try animations?  Some of Ralph Bakshe's efforts come close.  I hesitate to rely on a dynamic converter plugin because of inconsistent performance reported elsewhere, but maybe that can be overcome if I am modeling all of the elements and get a feel for what causes the errors.  Rambling now.

Jonstark

Doing a volumetric pass on the animations won't cost any more render time, and can be combined with the regular animation with Project Dogwaffler.  Before Octane supported Carrara Hair that's how I was able to put Carrara hair into an Octane render.  But I'm afraid that's the only solution that's probably going to work, and the downside is that the hair might look too realistic for a toon.

Diomede

Thanks for the pointers, Jonstark.  Here is a composite of dynamic hair with V4 using a method similar to what I described above.  Here, a straight render of the hair with the volumetric primitive pass is combined with a render of all other elements of Scene = Toon filter but outline reduce from 2 to 1.  Each element (V4, Clothes) effects toon override checked, outline remain 100%, toon reduced to 25%.  Scene ambient light raised to 50%.  You can see outline around V4 and the sweater.

The result is something between pure toon and pure realism.  Getting closer to what I want - but it needs sharks with freakin' lazers!  Is that too much to ask?

.

PhilW

Have you looked at VWD for a solution? You can use it to apply dynamics to modelled hair - but also there is a bonus in there that allows you to convert Carrara's dynamic hair to a polygon object and it works pretty well! So you could convert the hair and then use the dynamics part for your animations.

Diomede

I didn't know about the bonus.  Thanks, Phil.  Have the program.  Will check out the dynamic hair bonus feature.

Jonstark

That's funny, I didn't know about that bonus either, and I've got (but haven't yet played with) VWD.  I knew Philemo had mentioned working on a plugin that would turn Carrara dynamic hair into a polygon object, but had no idea it was oomplete or included.  Very cool!

Dartanbeck

diomede said:

Some heavy hitters have been on the forum recently, and no suggestions.  Starting to think I have a hopeless ambition. 

Sorry diomede... I have such little experience with Toon! rendering that I haven't replied. Things are really crazy right now (no time), so when I've been on the forum, I've only been here long enough to grab a couple threads before having to go away :(

Philemo_Carrara

@diomede, @Jonstark and @PhilW

Sent you a PM

PhilW

Thanks!