Loading G2F, Genesis, V4, etc. in Carrara -- questions of speed
ModernWizard
Posts: 850
Hi Carrara folks. I poked around in Carrara over the weekend, installing my whopping 2 Carrara items [Maple Meadows and World Gardens Maze], familiarizing myself with the controls, etc. I think it speaks volumes for Carrara that I wasn't yelling at the screen, as I did a lot when learning Studio, going, "What the heck? Why can't you do that?" My only WTF moment came when the content box, usually along the bottom, didn't want to dock over on the left hand side. It just hovers, much to my annoyance.
Anyway, I loaded a new G2F, and it took her about a year to show up. :p Just for comparison, I set up a G2F-based character with morphs, materials, hair, and clothes in Daz, saved him as a duf file, then loaded him in. He took about five years to show up. :p
What's the relative loading speed of various figures in Carrara? With G2F as a comparison, is Genesis any faster? How about V4? If V4 loads more expeditiously, I might port my G3F characters down to V4, save as custom cr2s with only those morphs I need, and go from there.
I'm still very excited about Carrara. I'm just wondering how to get people in there. :D
--MW
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Your estimate of the loading time (five years) is just about accurate. Genesis is no faster than Genesis 2, especially if they are clothed. V4 and M4 are considerbly faster. This slowness is a considerable hindrance. I wish Daz would do something about it, but I've given up on Daz updating Carrara. We may get the next update when the sun implodes in a nova.
Consider the advantages: while a Genesis file is uploading, you can do your groceries, clean up the house, etc....
Buy HowieFarkes' entire catalog...that sort of thing! :p
I think your estimate about Daz; next eventual update is also correct on the time scale. :p
Do V4 and M4 load with textures? That would also be a timesaver.
Gonna go experiment with moving my characters down to V4...
--MW
I have never timed it, but I think I get faster loading times if I load a genesis or genesis 2 figure (or compatible content) from my Carrara browser "object" tab that I previously loaded from duf and then saved as a carrara file, rather than a fresh genesis or genesis 2 from the Carrara browser "content" tab (straight duf). It is still slow, but seems faster. I know Jonstark reported something similar once, but I don't know if it is generally true or just something about the particular files that I commonly work with.
RE: moving to M4 and V4. Such a move brings a lot of very good and some fairly bad. On the good side, yes, you will observe faster usage speeds in general, with a few exceptions. Another very good is the ability to use the vertex modeler in animation mode easily. A third very good is that content for V4 and M4 is plentiful and relatively cheap when on sale.
On the bad side, you lose autofit. That means for morphed V4 and M4 bodies, the clothing item has to have matching morphs. It is easy to address in Carrara, or one can buy morph transfer utilities. A second bad is that with most figure generations come improvements in joint bends and that sort of thing. Again, easy to fix in Carrara (see morph in animation mode comment above) or can buy available morph bend products for M4/V4.
You can save any figure (V4, V5, V6) to your browser after applying the textures you want, then load the figure with that texture for future use.
EDIT: same is true for morphs.
Yup, I know all about the limitations of moving back 3-4 [!] generations of figure. Loss of autofit is not a problem, as I've been converting clothes to morphed V4s [and V3s!] with CrossDresser, Wardrobe Wizard, and other tools since way before autofit. Loss of improved articulation is also a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Now I just have to figure out how to get my characters back down to V4...
--MW
It sounds like you have Poser. In the Carrara content browser, there is an icon in the upper right that brings down a menu to add addtional runtime folders. Just add your Poser runtime and any custom runtimes that you created and you are good to go. Load V4 Poser content directly in Carrara from those runtimes. That is what I did before I switched to G2F and G2M characters.
You can also make a full body morph in Poser and then save and then load that character from its Poser Runtime directly in Carrara. It works really well because you can use Poser's Wardrobe Wizard to create a matching full body morph for your clothing content and Carrara will load it directly. Furthermore, Wardrobe Wizard also works on custom objs that you model to the base V4 yourself and will create a full body morph to fit your character. Alternatively, there is a dynamic cloth utility that can be used with any figure if you get the Carrara plugin.
Here is a suggestion that might work for the face, depending on your characters. Load your female character in Carrara. Load default V4 and zero. Follow the standard procedures for making a head morph for V4 for Poser in terms of exportng the body parts. Then load just the V4 head in its standard position. Move the original character so that the face lines up with the V4 loaded face. Select the V4 head. Click the wrench in the upper left to vertex model in the Assemble room. Move the vertexes to match your character. Then follow the standard procedures for saving the head as a morph for V4 as if it was going to be used in Poser.
diomede -- thanks for your reply about moving my characters down to V4. I'm not so hung up on the body shape, which I can use V4 M++ dials for, as I am the faces. Thus your suggestion about using the modeling room in Carrara to manually move vertices to match my characters seems to be the best practice. The only catches are these:
1. As a Daz user primarily, I mostly use my Poser as an expensive clothing conversion utility. :p Therefore I have no idea what the standard procedure for making V4 head morphs is. Is there a decent tutorial on this that you recommend?
2. I've barely poked into Carrara, much less the modeling room, so moving vertices sounds rather advanced. Time to check out the manual and various threads...
Look -- Carrara is inspiring me to learn new things, and I haven't even really gotten into the program yet! :p
--MW
HI ModernWizard
Genesis and G2 should be as usable in Carrara as they are in Daz Studio,. I'll admit that there is a difference in the time taken to load a figure,. since Daz Studio format is not Carrara's native format,. some things take longer to load in Carrara than DS,. but,. try this .
Open Carrara,. create a New, Medium scale, empty scene,. browse to your smart content and load a Genesis or G2 base figure.
it'll take a minute or so to load.,... Once it's loaded,. go to the "Objects" section of the Carrara browser,. select "My Objects" then drag your figure from the Scene "Instance panel" (bottom right) and drop it into your My Objects folder.
Close your scene,. create a New empty scene,. drag the saved figure from your "My Objects",. folder,. into the Scene instance list
Because Carrara isn't loading a strange format file,. converting the information and recreating a carrara version of the models and shaders,. this is much faster than reading and converting DUF files to carrara.
Using that method to load and save your existing characters to the carrara browser,. should give you the ability to load them as quickly as in Studio.
Most purchased content is "topology protected" in carrara,. to stop the curious and inexperienced user from easily breaking a complex figure. since you're now in an environment where you can do that.
This protection, can be bypassed,. to allow you to create morphs or paint displacement ect,.
It's not as straight forward as editing a model made in carrara,. which isn't protected..
You should practice ,. adjusting vertices, creating morph targets,. on a simpler model, just to get a feel for the process.
try creating a simple shape like a ball,. and experiment by creating some morph targets to change that shape,. Jump back to the assembly room and see how those morphs can be animated,. and how using different "Tweeners" can change your animation.
Hope it helps
other stuff which may be helpful..
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/Carrara_first_steps.zip
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/First_step_Physics_C8.pdf
I'm sorry, I don't get this, or the resoponses you have received. I'm wondering if I am missing something?
I just now started Carrara. I made a new medium scene, and loaded in a G2 male base figure. It loaded in 6 seconds.
I closed and restarted Carrara. I followed the same procedure with a G2 female base figure. Six seconds.
I closed and started one final time, this time with Ysabeau 6. It also loaded in 6 seconds.
My computer is nothing special - an I5 with an older Nvidia card.
Again, am I missing something? For me, character load speed is not even a factor.
HI Unified brain,. :)
I think it depends on what you're loading,. and possibly the amount of Morphs, or characters installed for that figure.
A simple base Genesis or Genesis 2 should load from the browser in just a few seconds, ..as you say.,. and certainly under one minute (real time).
but a complete figure/hair/clothing etc,. (a saved Daz Studio Scene) may take longer to load into Carrara,. than it would in Daz Studio.
I think the example times given by the OP are slightly over exaggerated,. (one year, and five years,) .. I think I'd give up, ..or at least consider hitting cancel,.. after a few months :)
It's also a delicate process to encourage a DS user to stop doing stuff in DS,. and start doing stuff in Carrara,. without constantly comparing both programs.
Carrara is a different program. but Studio is what's familiar
Hi 3DAGE. Thanks for this explanation about the long load times for Genesis and Genesis 2 non-Carrara native files. I will try saving my characters as Carrara native files to see if that reduces load times.
UnifiedBrain -- You and I are doing different things. You are loading base figures, but I'm not. I created a custom morphed character in Daz Studio on a G2F base and gave him texture, clothing, and hair. I then saved him as a duf scene.
Then I opened Carrara and, from there, opened the duf file containing my character. Carrara took about five years to open him up, and he wasn't even textured. :p This is the problem that I need to deal with before really delving into Carrara.
Once more unto the breach, my friends! ...Going to try saving my people to My Objects this eve to see if that reduces load times...
--MW
Except, you said something else - at first. You said that you loaded a NEW G2F, and that it took a year to load. That part I don't understand. I can understand the possible delay in loading a custom figure created in Studio. But my concern is that potential users of Carrara will read that Daz base characters load slowly, and that is not the case. If a new base figure loaded slowly for you, my point is that you may have other issues. That's all I'm saying.
Hence my desire to see a tutorial specifically aimed at Studio users who are interested in migrating to Carrara. I keep hearing Carrara users say that Carrara offers so much more than Studio. I've never doubted this for a moment, since I first heard of Carrara many years ago. But I REALLY like the basic functions of Studio. My concern has always been that Carrara, however wonderful it is, cannot duplicate basic Daz functions in a reasonable way. What I want is a guide which compares Studio and Carrara apples to apples, and says "Here is how you do it in Studio, now here is the new way you can do the same thing in Carrara."
But maybe I am completely mistaken. Maybe Studio really kicks Carrara's butt when it comes to loading, morphing, clothing, and posing figures. If that is true, I may be wasting my time proving otherwise. All I know at this point is that I'm getting more comfortable with Carrara and missing Studio less day by day. It hasn't been easy, because nobody seems to care SPECIFICALLY about converting Studio users to Carrara, but so far, I am very encouraged.
BTW - are you the 3DAGE with the Rendo store? I'm a long time admirer.
Now that I think about it, I expect that my new G2F took a year to load because it was not the default textured G2F character straight from the file that Daz Studio provides with the starter essentials. I created a custom base G2F with no texture maps and her arms down at her sides, then saved her as a scene subset. That took a year to load.
I think my main challenge is what you quoted 3DAGE as saying: "Carrara is a different program, but Studio is what's familiar." I.e., I've been trying to import Daz scene files into Carrara, so I have NOT been using the native Carrara file formats. 3DAGE indicates that the duf format probably contributes to much of my extended load times. That's why I'm going to try reconstituting my characters in Carrara and saving them as Carrara natives.
If you are getting more and more comfortable in Carrara and missing Studio less and less every day, I will follow your progress eagerly and probably learn from you! :D
--MW
Ah, but I also loaded Ysabeau 6 (a rather obscure Gen 6 figure) that does not come with the starter essentials. But I now understand what you were doing.
I guess that a lot of people do this? Again, maybe this is an indicator that Studio really is better than Carrara at basic functions. But I can't know this for sure without going cold turkey with Carrara for a while, and creating things there myself from the get-go. I don't blame others for choosing to ignore Carrara, or for using it as a glorified special efects tool, because the path from Studio to Carrara is very muddy. But I really like the idea of doing everything WELL in one program. We shall see.
Ha! Thanks for your comments, and thanks to the people on this forum, unlike myself, who are actually knowlegeable.
Since Daz seems to have somewhat abandoned the program - hopefully that will change down the road - we all have to learn from each other.
It really, really matters how many morphs you have installed for your Genesis character. First time I loaded up Genesis in Carrara I was blown away by how fast it was, but then after I bought a bunch of morph add-ons and installed them I was blown away by how slow it was to load up
(and this was all loading in Carrara, as I really dislike working in Studio and find it much faster to do everything in Carrara; I only keep Studio around as a plugin if I need to rig clothing to a Genesis figure and things of that nature).
However, I do also see a dramatic decrease in load times when I save my character as a Carrara object and load it as a Carrara object rather than a duf file, as 3dage points out above. It's also less likely to 'behave badly' or have unexpected problems down the road.
The type of modeling involved in making clothing fit better or changing a face shape to match an existing face shape is fairly simple and easy to do in Carrara, in my opinion (I'm no expert modeler, but it's pretty easy to go into the modeling room, check 'soft selection' and tug a few vertices into place). I've been thinking about doing a how-to video for this for a little while, I may be able to put some time together this weekend to do a quick vid to show that even a modeling-idiot like me can do it
Can you give some specific examples?
Without reading all of the responses (gotta go - no time right now), I have to add something very important to understand about Genesis and Carrara:
Once we load in one Genesis figure, which can take a bit of time sometimes, a second Genesis of the same type will load extremely fast! Unreal!
V4 loads in quite a bit quicker, I think. But the next V4 will take the same amount of time to load in. The same goes for figures like Loretta LoRez and the like.
When it comes to Genesis - it's really handy for filling scenes full of people, since it can be Male or Female and still wear nearly anything we own, and can take on so many personal traits - we can have entirely different people made for the same figure.
This power is expontentially beneficial when every one after the first loads in like a text message (forgive the slight exaggeration! LOL)
...and they save nicely to the browser too.
I'm a big Generation 4 fan. Love V4 and M4 and the rest. And I just Love Genesis! Fantastic figure!
Studio does some basic functions very well. The advantage of Carrara, in my view, is that it does things (at all) better than Studio because Studio does not do these things. There is no comparison of native functions because Studio simply does not do these things natively. However, having said that, plugins for Studio have slowly accumulated that mimic some of the features of Carrara. If a person is getting good results using Studio and plugins, then by all means keep doing that. But then again these plugins are not free. Here are some examples.
Hair - Carrara native dynamic hair - Studio plugin Look at my hair 49.94 http://www.daz3d.com/look-at-my-hair
Multipass Rendering - Carrara native multipass renderer - Studio plugin mask and multipass plugin 19.95 http://www.daz3d.com/mask-and-multipass-toolbox
Replicators - Carrara native grid replicator and surface replicator - Daz instancing and plugin ultrascatter 29.95 http://www.daz3d.com/ultrascatter-advanced-instancing-for-daz-studio
Terrain heightmap - Carrara native terran editor - Daz bridge to Bryce 19.95 http://www.daz3d.com/bryce-7-pro ;
Vertex modeling - Carrara native vertex modeler - Daz Bridge to Hexagon 19.95 http://www.daz3d.com/hexagon-2-5-download-version
Realistic sky - Carrara native realistic sky editor - Daz Terradome 39.97 http://www.daz3d.com/terradome-3-iray
Physics (hard objects), including in animation - Carrara native - Studio?
Physics (softbody), including in animaition - Carrara native - Studio?
Line rendering - Carrara native NPR - Studio plugin 24.47 Line Rendering 9000 http://www.daz3d.com/linerender9000
On the other hand, Studio now includes more realistic rendering in Iray, and a comparable plugin for Carrara is not free (octane)
ModernWizard and UnifiedBrain, Thanks to you both for bringing up posing figures for many reasons. I've now re-created something I'd done in DS last year... posing and texturing/shading a statue using Genesis 2 base... I can now add more things to the scene without the need to go grab more content... I'll still buy content but not as frantically as before in order to do what I could with DS as I can in Carrara. I'm glad that you brought up the topic of load times... I do wait while for nearly anything from DAZ for DS to load especially figures... longer than 6 secs but that is probably my system, AMD FX8120 8 core, just timed it nearly 3.5 minutes for G2 base... seems like 5 years :) ... compared to Carrara native content.
3DAGE and Jonstark, Thanks for convincing me to finally start saving the figures to my objects. Other had mentioned this but you both have pointed out the reasons to do so. Cool advice!
I'll be posing in no time... when I'm not modeling. :)
Dart, I wonder why load in a second figure instead of using copy/paste? Thanks for pointing out the benefits of Genesis as well as Generation 4. I can see a much larger use for each... goodness knows I've enough content for both. Perhaps I'll use them or even simpler/lower poly models in the background.
diomede, Good points all. I'd never even considered multipass or line rendering for DS... that will not happen since I'd rather animate in Carrara.
The tutorials I have posted include how to load a Daz human figure, how to load and apply a purchased clothing item, how to apply a purchased pose preset, how to use the rotate tool to pose individual body parts, how to insert lights and use "point at", how to change surface materials, and how to render. It doesn't seem to me that one program is better than the other in the sense that both programs allow a pose preset to be applied by clicking on an icon and both programs allow manipulating body parts by using a rotate tool. However, as a general observation, I have always viewed Carrara as a "jack of all trades, master of none" software. Bryce has more terrain editing tools than Carrara. On that dimension, the Studio -> Bryce bridge workflow is superior to Carrara. However, if one does this, then one loses the ability to further pose the figure and can't render using Iray (I think, that might be wrong). Similarly, the vertex modeler in Hexagon has more tools than the vertex modeler in Carrara so the Studio - > Hexagon vertex modeling workflow is superior to Carrara on that dimension. On the other hand, Carrara has other modelers and those modelers have settings that can be animated within Carrara (eg. spline animation). Using Hexagon for the same thing would require creating morphs and adjusting uvmaps. The ultrascatter plugin has some settings that Carrara's replicator does not, but Carrara's replicator has some settings that ultrascatter does not. Which one is superior depends on how it is being used in a given particular project.
Personally, I do not claim that Carrara is superior to Studio in posing figures. If there is still a question about how Carrara does something specific, will try to be helpful. I think that the existing tutorials include how to do the basic functions of Studio, but that may be because I am not primarily a Studio user.
.
Minuscule progress in Carrara last night, following 3DAGE's advice: I made a new medium scene, loaded up my custom G2F base file, waited a year for her to import, then saved her to the My Objects tab. Took about five years for her to save there, but, once she did, I tried loading her from there. She loaded much more speedily! I'm now ready to reconstitute my people as Carrara natives.
Is it possible to make subfolders under My Objects? I can see myself making Carrara native versions of my people, hair, clothing, props, etc., just for ease of loading. Of course the My Objects tab would quickly become cluttered if I put all these custom objects on the same level.
Up next on my Carrara wishlist is Country Lane 2 [of course by HowieFarkes] and Country Lane Autumnia. Swap out the beeches for some maples; put a covered bridge over that stream, and you have the postcard view of the Vermont countryside that we like to present to the world. [Cow plops not included.] I should probably just get HowieFarkes' whole catalog...
--MW
ModernWizard, you sure can (make subfolders in My Objects). The path, at least in Windows, is in your Documents folder and from there it's: Documents\DAZ 3D\Carrara 8.5\My Presets\My Objects I create lots of subfolders for everything. The other biggie is that once I create a shader I like (for example if I tune the textures of a specific character's skin to look good in Carrara) I like to save my new custom shaders in the Shaders tab, and of course I make a lot of subfolders there too, and the path is very similar: Documents\DAZ 3D\Carrara 8.5\My Presets\My Shaders
MW, Just loaded G2 base that I'd save earlier... timed load time at 6-7 secs instead of 3.5 seconds. Waay kewl.
I've not tried this yet but know that it is possible as others have done it. You can create your own custom folders and subfolders... ones for figures, clothing, hair etc.
You might want to grab the bundle with those instead...Country Lane - Super Bundle... bundles are less expensive in the long run... how silly am I... you likely know that already. :) Don't leave out other Carrara PAs like...
PhilW, mmoir, RingoMonfort, TangoAlpha, Dartanbeck, GKDantas, Fenric, Tim Payne, DimensionTheory, GoFigure, xenic101, Holyforest, and others like MatCreator, Sadot, and Larsen... surely I'm leaving many out, sorry if I missed someone.
Re subfolders in My Objects -- nice to know that it can be done. I just can't figure out how. Right clicking doesn't bring up any useful contextual options, and the My Objects window doesn't have a New Folder creation button [unless I'm completely missing something].
Yes, I have the Lane 2/Autumnia bundle on my wishlist already! I opted for that one over Country Lane because it more closely resembles the dirt roads around here [minus hedgerows -- we don't have those in Vermont]. I have no wish to leave out any other Carrara content creators; I'm just focusing on HowieFarkes because his models look like where I live in a way that no one else's do. In fact, that's primarily why I got into Carrara.
--MW
You need to set up any subfolders separately in Windows - annoyingly you can't create them directly with Carrara - they will appear the next time you load Carrara, or you can highlight My Objects and use the drop down on the right to Update Folder.
If you did, I suspect that you would be alone! On the contrary, I'm wondering if Carrara is more or less equal to Studio in this regard, but just a bit different. I would be happy with that outcome.
As I mentioned on another thread, I did part 1 of your last tutorial - twice. You were clear that you wrote it not so much for the current Studio user, but for all users in general. On that level, I think it was both creative and useful, although some of the directions could have been clearer. My agenda, however, is to find or create a tutorial specifically for the smooth migration from Studio to Carrara. I think that most Studio users have a comfort zone that must be addressed first before taking up the challenge of using the more advanced features of Carrara. I suspect that most of you power Carrara users either don't get - or don't agree - with what I am saying.
And this is likely because the majority of you did not start with Studio and migrate to Carrara. Instead, you started from the perspective of various other 3D programs and found Carrara somewhere in your travels.
I started with Studio. Based on reading thousands of posts, I believe that Studio has a huge user base who know nothing else. Tap into that, and maybe Carrara will move up higher on Daz's priority list.
For better or worse, that is my perspective. As I've said before, I could be wrong. Not far enough down the path to know for sure.
But never doubt this - I really appreciate your efforts. I learned several new things from part 1 of your tutorial.
Unified brain ,. I'm not that 3D-Age. sorry.
On the transition from Studio, to Carrara,. something that must be mentioned,.. to understand why we're here,. is Poser.
Poser was the program which Zygote (later to become Daz3D) started to make models for.
Poser was sold to another company,. then again, and again,. and as a content producer for a product, with an uncertain future,. it was a sensible strategic decision to create their own software,. Daz Studio.
Studio was built to allow the same models to be used in the same way, and hopefully encourage Poser users to buy Daz Studio.
the structure of Content libraried was exactly the same as Poser,. the workflow was very similar to poser,. which should make it an easy transition for users.
Around the same time,. Carrara was purchased by Daz3D from it's developer Eovia.
it had the ability to Import Poser / Daz3D models in their native format,. so they could be used in the same way as in Poser or Daz Studio
On using Carrara to load content,. that should be the same. or almost the same as in Studio or Poser
you'd load content from the browser,. either from your Daz3D library, Poser runtime library, or your own Carrara content.
Carrara has three default scene scales,. which is a bit different from Studio or Poser. ..Medium scale is ideal for working with human scale figures.
Applying or adjusting figure morphs,. is done in the figures "Parameters" tab,. depending on the figure, or part of the figure you have selected.
To add clothing or hair to a figure,. Select the figure,. browse to the content, and double click to load and "fit it" to the selected figure.
If you didn't have a figure selected,.. you can "Fit" the clothing or hair to the figure by using the "fit to" option in the right hand panel General tab.
To apply poses,. you can double click a premade pose in your content library ,. or manually pose the figure using the tools on the left to move rotate etc.
you can manually select bones and move or rotate them,. ..you can select multple bones,. EG: Both hands,. and move them at the same time.
you can right click over an object in your scene to get a list of objects under the mouse,. EG: bones in a figure's hand.
then select the object from that list.
See pic
Applying textures / materials,. MatPoses for content, should be the same process,.load from browser,.
In the majority of cases,. the structure of these shaders made for DS and Poser need some minor adjustment in carrara's shader room,. to look better.
Carrara translates the "Surfaces" structure from Studio or Poser items,. into it's own shader system. and like any translation,. some time perfect is not. :)
Even good old Victoria 4's shaders need to have some minor adjustments to look it's best in Carrara, instead of sickly green.
Simple things like reflection maps for eye's, which carrara doesn't need,. the eyes can reflect the objects in the carrara scene.
Most of the time, you can load any content and simply render for a decent image,. but if you spend a little time in the shader rooms you can make it look better.
There are some obvious differences in features and functionaltity between Carrara and Daz Studio, or Poser,. but the basic workflow of using "content" in carrara should be the same as in Poser or Daz Studio.
If there's something in Carrara that you're having difficulty with,. or something that you think is different from what you're used to doing in studio,. maybe you could help us out by highlighting those areas,. and I'll try to help.
Also,.. whether you come from Studio,. Poser, some other 3D software,. or nothing at all,. there's a learning curve for all things new,.
Carrara's learning curve is relatively easy,. when compared to most 3D suites,.. which don't support native loading of Daz/Poser figures.