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Hi Kharma,
I think the biggies eye opener to me were three things that experienced users take for granted- and I have some questions too-
(DO NOT LAUGH FOLKS)
1. When you buy a character, remember morphing, and that features can be changed. I'm doing Genesis.
Question- does this ability to morph faces and bodies apply to the earlier versions? Such as V4, M4 (known as Generation 4 if I'm correct?)
So when you see a character offered, think more broadly of the possibilities. I felt Caitlyn had a great starting point. Obviously, I greatly changed the lips and nose. Well, I changed everything actually. But what a great base face to work from. Back in September when I started buying, I was focused on what the product looked like, and didnt really consider how it could be morphed and changed. (Yes, I'll admit it.)
2. Scott's got a great hair tutorial (I am reading it now) and it explains the different types of hair, what the extensions tell you, and more. I'm still reading it. It is helping me to understand when I buy hair what I can expect. Some morphs, some are painted, etc. (Although I am done buying hair, it helps to know what I have.) So strongly recommend that tutorial. Thanks Scott!
3. You aren't limited to the hair colors I don't think- here's a question I was going to ask- can't you use diffuse any of the hair products? Or is it just certain ones? And how exactly does Specular Color impact the diffuse color? I'm not seeing much change. I though Specular was the glow, right?
Am doing some screenshots to show all of you the difference that those iterations make for each step. It's interesting and I dont mind doing it for you. (Particularly you, Kharma :) I won't be able to help you very often, lol. You're probably going to be one of MY go-to artists!) Back in about 10 minutes.
Cathie
Yes, Gen 4 figures have their own set of morphs to change their shapes and features, just as Genesis does. All figures do, even dating back to the Gen 1 figures. To use Gen 4 morphs on Genesis, though, you'd need Genesis Generation X and V4 M4 Shapes for Genesis (if you don't already have them).
As for changing hair color through the use of the Diffuse slider, yes, you can do so. I've done it on a number of occasions, though it works better when you start with lighter hair colors (i.e blonde, or white), though it can be used to tweak darker colors to a degree.
Hi Tramp Graphics, good to see you're back :)
So, how does the Specular Color work? Is it like the "glow?" I just put a blue Diffuse in my figure's hair, with a lighter blue Specular.
Here's the iterations so you folks can see what happens. The hair shifted, in this case, the strands became more defined as the iterations went up because they were chunked off / awful. It shows the blue on top of the black, as mentioned. Funky! The last is a close up, closer than my camera will probably ever go, but I want it to be fairly free of smudgies.
CLICK ON THEM TO SEE THE CLOSEUPS.
This should answer your question regarding Specularity
Okay, next question. Under Smoothing Type (Remember, select your hair at the top, by the Scene tab, as shown in my image. Go to Parameters, select what shown. (Get into Mesh Smoothing.)
My two options were Base Shape Mapping, and Generic. When do you use Generic? (I assume I am NOT supposed to be using it now, lol. That would be an OOPSIE, wouldn't it!)
Cathie
Thanks- right after I posted that, I went back to my other thread where I was having trouble making an outfit lose the glossy. It dawned on me I used the Specularity, so I was probably thinking of ambient lighting or something else. Reading what you linked though- very helpful.
Richard posted in that thread: "That’s probably because the hair is picking up on the morphs used to shape the head - if that is the issue, go to the Parametrs pane and right-click on its tab, then select Show Hidden Properties; click the Used group to limit the number of morphs showing and you should see the morphs generated by DS in grey; try zeroing those until you find the one that is causing the hair problem (ctrl-z to restore any that are needed to get the hair to fit)."
So I did that (yes, I can fall back on the Smoothing but it was hinted that this might be another route) Here's the image (for those following along) of what Richard suggested. Nothing moved except the tuft of hair at the base of the neck. WHY? How do I mess with just the front tufts? (And yes, I did test them one at a time too, leaving the others at their settings.)
And sorry, I'm not following what an eye lush layer morph is from the post above, or the auto generated morph?
Cathie
With all of this PIB (pain in the booty) hair issues, would it be better to put the hair on the figure FIRST before doing the morphs? Or would the artist still have these exact same issues? Same question would go for clothing, because I can already see the shirt isn't working right at the bottom either. (Will get to that later.)
Thanks Cathie, it was interesting to see how the different iterations changed the hair. You are getting a grasp on all this faster than I am :) thanks so much for sharing all your tips :)
Richard posted in that thread: "That’s probably because the hair is picking up on the morphs used to shape the head - if that is the issue, go to the Parametrs pane and right-click on its tab, then select Show Hidden Properties; click the Used group to limit the number of morphs showing and you should see the morphs generated by DS in grey; try zeroing those until you find the one that is causing the hair problem (ctrl-z to restore any that are needed to get the hair to fit)."
So I did that (yes, I can fall back on the Smoothing but it was hinted that this might be another route) Here's the image (for those following along) of what Richard suggested. Nothing moved except the tuft of hair at the base of the neck. WHY? How do I mess with just the front tufts? (And yes, I did test them one at a time too, leaving the others at their settings.)
And sorry, I'm not following what an eye lush layer morph is from the post above, or the auto generated morph?
Cathie
Cathie, I'm glad you're finding my tutorial useful! I think kitakoredaz meant "eyelash morph." Eyelash morphs are often (but not always) the offenders out of that list, when there's trouble like this. Auto-generated morphs mean morphs that are generated automatically during the process of conforming the hair to the morphed Genesis figure. Usually this is a good thing...if your character has unusually large brow ridges, for instance, you'll want the hair to respect them. Sometimes it's not a good thing and you'll need to zero them out through Richard's procedure...like if your character has elf ears, you don't want the hair twisting and bending around the tips of them. The issue you're seeing, I would expect, is caused by one of these auto-generated morphs...and if so, zeroing it out should correct this issue.
Now, that having been said, I'm testing this out (I own Pyrit Hair...I don't have Caitlyn, but I was able to get similar results on Young Teen Justin) and I couldn't find a single morph that would fix this, either. I had to zero out ALL the autogenerated morphs before the problem with the front locks went away. I then increased the x-scale and z-scale a bit to offset the shrinking that happened as a result of zeroing these morphs (there's still a tiny bit of pokethrough on the side...probably should have increased x-scale a bit more, or applied a smoothing modifier).
One alternative you could try: instead of using the conforming hair, the Pyrit Hair product also includes an hr2 hair prop which you can parent to Genesis using the procedure detailed in my tutorial (linked earlier in the thread). Find it in the Content Library, in the Hair folder within "Poser Formats." It's showing up in my Smart Content too, as long as I don't have Genesis selected.
Hope this is helpful!
Thanks for that info, and the great picture. I had no idea that button changed when I had the scene tab selected. Go figure. I knew it changed between content library and parameters, but not the scene. I've been wishing for less clicking to apply a smoothing modifier. Perfect timing. :)
Love your character, by the way!
Glad to be of service, lol. (Thank the people who guided me to it in this thread, I was like, "That dropdown wasn't there a minute ago...OH, that changes when I'm in a different tab!")
I'm not ignoring everyone, I've been working on the hair doing morphs before I try these other options. I want to know exactly what frustrations other people are having/ learn what can go wrong- so I can pay back later and help out like all the wonderful folks helping me. If I know what problems they are having, or what they are doing, it will help me understand. Also, this is helping me remember where all these menus and tabs are, what they do. (Since I keep going and switching the smoothing off, lol. REALLY recommend people do that when playing with the morphs. It eliminates lag if you're having it. Do a morph, turn on the smoother, check it out, turn off the smoother. Do another morph.)
The Pyrit Hair is NOT what I would recommend for the first hairstyle to try. My goodness, those morphs leave huge gaps over the ears, and if you shift to fix that, then behind the ear is bald. ARRGH. Seriously, I have been doing this for about two hours. I can easily go in and fix it in Photoshop, but I don't want to do that.
In the spirit of keeping this information all in one place on the forum, I will post the BEST settings I've found for getting the hair close to the ears, to save folks some time. Then I'll try the other suggestions so we'll get a well rounded comparision. The head was NOT morphed that much, the brow area, the head (at 98%, etc) shouldn't be causing THIS much of a problem I dont think. But how would I know!
Cathie
Never got an answer on this- but did try Generic. It was awful
"Okay, next question. Under Smoothing Type (Remember, select your hair at the top, by the Scene tab, as shown in my image. Go to Parameters, select what shown. (Get into Mesh Smoothing.)
My two options were Base Shape Mapping, and Generic. When do you use Generic?
Hi novica:)
you must need to remove the auto - followd morph effect from your Pyrit hair .
I know when ask something in forum ,many helpful person try to solve the problem
but you need to step by step. after solve one problem then try next.
about your every pic in this topic your hair must be influenced by the generated morph.
so that even though you change setting of smooth modifier or try to move your hair by style morph
,and reduce the influence, it can not be solution.
1 remove only hair from the scene . then "select genesis",, re load the pinty hair again on to your character
the hair fit-to genesis.
7 . then select hair,, go to parameter tab. use option "show hidden properties" (as you know)
8 then click "currently used" (if you tweak many parameter ^^;, you can not find which morph are generated,, never
so that just keep the current status untill you find the critical morphs)
9 there may be some morphs are generated to pinty hair. go to top area in parameter tab, there is serching column
in put "eye"
10 after that,, you need to find which morph effect bad,, by your self ^^;
because we can not check which morph are generated or not. without get your caharacter moroph ^^;
Will try all of this, just want to complete one test before I try another.
Scott, can you show me the side views and from 3/4 angle turn from the back, so I can see what behind the character's ears look like? Let's compare. I'm screenshotting mine now.
Cathie
Hi novica,, If you hope to go your way as you like,, OK
do not need to try what I said , and
not need to see what I tell .it just waste your time.
(I am not man who care seriously about what other people doing or saying,:)
and I serioulsy love the style going my way;-)
but if you feel you might misatke,,or you need to modify again,,read what I say.
at first glance , when see your pic, many ds user may think,
the prolbem is because of generated morph to the hair.
it is good to learn about smooth modifier setting or another things.
but if you use smooth modifier , with keeping bad effects of generated morph,,
it make you more diffucult to learn good setting of modifier.
I feel,, As if army surgeon try to adjust the face shape of wound soldier
without removing the bullet under the skin.
I think,, Scott-Livingston suggested to check again your hair before tweaking many.
but you say,,
I believe it is joke. you may recommend more easy hair for first hair style. but it is no matter about Pirit Hair,,,
the difficultiy is not caused by Pyrit hair.
If you use the character morph which you recommended, you may find almost same problem about every hair which can fit-to the character.and not only the character,, I know some character morphs cause same problem.
So that Many User have learned how remove this problem about hair.
serch hide generated morph. turn value to zero .about only morph which is not good for the hair.
then remove the bad effect only.
(many generated morph is useful ,, without them,, the hair never fit to the character head shape.
so need to check each generated morph which morph is need or not)
it is simple and true answer of this problems.
after that, if hope more smooth,, user may set smoothing modifier.
then use product morphs of the hair to make good hair style (all of them is useful for adjusting hair style and pozing)
or sometimes need to tweak in 3d tool to make new morph which can fit for other pozing.
I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing, but as Scott and I discussed, I already turned all those sliders to zero, testing each one, without any effect. So did Scott if I read the post correctly, and he has given an alternate idea which I will try when I am done experimenting with the smoothing controls. Unless you were talking about different controls? I'll have to go back and compare the posts. Scotts tutorial is a long one and I will finish reading it when I can.
I do read the posts and am going to look into each suggestion. I am not in a time crunch and am finishing up the smoothing option so people can see how that worked, then I'll check into Scotts, then yours (if it has something different than those controls I already did. I'll have to go back and read it I really appreciate your input!)
I'm wrapping up the smoothing iterations now, will post results, then take a break, and Scott- fascinating tutorial so far. I didn't know about the file extensions and how to tell something was a prop!
So thanks to everyone helping!
Here's the results using the Smoothing Iterations. In the next few days I'll poke around and try to get caught up on the other techniques. :)
Here's the hardest part of using the morphs on this hair- everything moves the hair behind and in front of the ear, and forms an inverted V over the ear- so even if you are moving the bangs, it shifts the hair away from the ear. You'll see that from the rear photo- the small rounded bald area behind the ear- that was as close as I could get it. This took HOURS of doing the morphs, turning the smoothing on again, turning it off, doing the sliders. (But yes, wanted to try it!)
You HAVE to do the smoothing iteration/ morphs from at least a 3/4th of a turn view to really see how they are affecting the sides. It was also hard to get the hair to be against the face. If you moved it to lay like it should, it made the hair disappear above the ear or again, from behind it.
There's a lot of morphs with this hairstyle. I just wish the bangs didn't move the hair behind the ear. (Correction- everything does!)
Cathie
I'll take a look tonight when I have a chance, and post some more images.
Kitakoredaz, thanks for including the step-by-step! :) That process has definitely helped me when I've had these sorts of issues.
Hmm, I see what you mean about above and behind the ear. Here are screenshots with the conforming hair, auto-generated morphs zeroed out, x-scale 107%, z-scale 102%. I used the "ADJ Nose Out" morph on the second one, which helped somewhat with this gap. The ear-related morphs can probably improve this further.
I think zeroing the autogenerated morphs probably made things worse as far as the gap around the ears is concerned. Haven't tried it yet, but I'm wondering if the prop hair might be a better solution for this character...
In case anyone is interested, I will post what I used and also the (hope this is the right term?) character morphs percentages, even if you don't have Caitlyn, I didn't use that much of her. I noticed it was mostly a hips/leg change, not the contour of the head, so if anyone wants to go the route of smoothing/morphs, this will save you many hours of playing around with it. I'll give you the head adjustments that apply to the top of the skull too, so you'll be in the ballpark.
One of the funky things (which I actually LOVE) is that this particular head/pyrit hair with smoothing/morphs, does weird things with the Alruna helmet. I LOVE that the hair (even with smoothing of I think 12, I'll have to go look) takes over the helmet so the hair shows instead of the metal. The helmet has the "side by side" morph, so all I did was move the helmet slightly away from the head to overcome the hair going through the sides (NOT attractive, unlike it at the front.)
Scott, I am getting ready to try the same head with the prop hair either late tonight or tomorrow. Will compare :) Also, will start back reading your tutorial. Very busy today and tomorrow.
I named my character Kaetl. (Cay-tul) It was a nickname for my friend, also named Kathy, by her father. I always thought it was pretty.
I don't expect anyone else to remember how to spell it, lol, but when I post tutorials on my website (showing all this, btw) that will usually be Kaetl. So need to get several pyrit hair (s) on her so we can see what works best / share experience. Will be back shortly with my Alruna (modified) helmet with Kaetl / morphs/ smoothing iterations and collision iterations. Later will give you all the morph percentages. (long list) in case you want to experiment (and if the prop hair doesn't show the hair with Alruna, and you like this style.)
Cathie
IF you want to have the hair fit properly inside the helmet, I suggest getting the Dformers Plus: Hat Head. It works great. I've even found uses for it to create "squeeze" morphs for clothing on other parts of the body (such as sleeves).
Very nice! I put it on my wishlist, if it doesn't go on sale soon I'll take the plunge.
I did the scene with Carnite's d-formers, so I have those at least somewhat in the "know what that is" category, but how do magnets relate to d formers/ and how do magnets differ from bones?
Cathie
My character "Kaetl" with Aruna helmet/outfit. Love the detail in that product, highly recommend. (And there are other variations/colors in another product)
You can see the difference in what the original helmet looks like , I'll go get that image and be back in a few minutes and mine, which shows the hair (which I prefer.) Except for the back view which I am not going to show in a render anyway, this works fine for me. For the render (with scenery) it will probably be either the upper left or bottom left views anyway.
Also remembered I slid the helmet wingie things back so they weren't standing straight up.
This isn't the view that I am going to be using (the hair becomes overwhelming in this view) but it gives you the best comparison between how the helmet is supposed to be and how this turned out. As I said, I'll try the prop hair later tonight or tomorrow and let you folks know how it goes.
Cathie
Very nice! I put it on my wishlist, if it doesn't go on sale soon I'll take the plunge.
I did the scene with Carnite's d-formers, so I have those at least somewhat in the "know what that is" category, but how do magnets relate to d formers/ and how do magnets differ from bones?
CathieThe Magnets are for Poser, so don't worry about them. IF you want to see the set at work, here's a render of a scene with two characters who use them—the girl to fit her hair into her hat, and the Japanese boy to fit the sash around his hair, and fit the lower part s of his hair inside the hood.
Here's some of the information that will help you with the Pyrit Hair if you aren't going the prop hair route and wish to experiment with smoothing and iterations. (I'm not saying go this route and NOT the prop, I just haven't gotten to that yet but am trying it next, then will post those results.) I'll get you close to the upper head shape.
Scott, if you want to play with these on your characters or others in the future that have the behind the ear problem, and the prop hair and other approaches don't work, maybe this'll save you some time. It took about FIVE HOURS to get the hair to move really close to the ear from behind and from the top, with only a slight inverted V over them. :) I just had to explore whether I could tackle it and win with those ears- and I did! But I certainly will move on and check out the easier (hopefully) options now
After l tackle your approaches, I will post results in a few days.
So here ya go!
Basic Female .40
Caitlyn .20
Victoria 5 0.41
Victoria 5 Supermodel 0.38
Voluptuous 0.078
Some of the character features that will impact your head shape-
Ears Height .21
Ear Size -0.89
Earlobes: (Attached 0.24) (Length -1.00) (Size -0.12)
Ears Angle -0.15
Ears Child 0.00
Ears Depth 0.70
Eyes Height -0.66
Eyes Width -0.34
Eyelashes Length -0.63 (Since that could be a culprit in affecting the iterations)
The cranium slope is -0.58
Smoothing Iterations 10, Collision Iterations 16
ADJ Nose Out 95.6%
Ear Back (Both 0) (L 100) (R -25.5)
Ear Up (Both 0) (L -91.2) (R -80.5)
Fine Longer -85.8
Front LE Longer -60.2
Front RI Longer -23.0
Front Longer -23.9
Front Shorter 100
Front Style 1 -16.8
Front Style 2 -12.4
Front Style 3 22.1
Front Style 4 64.6
Front Style 5 23.0
Neck Out 74.3
Neck Hair Side up (L -5.3) (R -18.6)
Side out Both -82.3 (L 39.8) (R 37.2)
SIdeburn Bend Both 0 (L 100) (R -69.9)
Sideburn Longer Both 25.7 (L 34.5) (R -50.4)
Sideburn Shorter Both 0 (L -15) (R -69.9)
Volume All -46
Volume Only Back Head -12.4
Wind Both 0 (L 61.1) (R 85)
Glad you're getting some results that you are happy with, and thank you for posting those settings! Of course the exact numbers will vary greatly depending on the character, but that will give people a good starting place, especially for V5 and/or Basic Female-based characters. :)
Based on the shape of the Alruna helmet and how much of the head it covers, I'm pretty sure it's designed to work on bald characters. But that is a pretty cool and interesting look the way your Kaetl (love the name, by the way!) wears it...
Thank you- I am not sure if Kaetl is a derivation or a word for Kathy in German, her dad called her that and he is from Germany.
That's too funny- I never even thought about it being on a bald head, but that would explain it. It is a very tight fit (If you do the side/side with the helmet, it really bows out away from the head, and any style of hair would show I think, but I'm not sure)
My son is experimenting with Ronin and Wild Mane Hair- there is no smoothing iterations to turn off and on that we can find! Doesn't every character have that option?
Found it from Tramp Graphic's post- I assumed the smoothing option would be shown, but you have to enable it. (Good reminder for folks)
In your scene tab, (it should be on the right hand side of the screen, along with Parameter, Content Library, and Tool Settings) select the hair, then click on the “Disply Active Scene Tab options, icon in the top left corner,(MY EDIT- its the RIGHT) drop down to Edit>Apply Smoothing Modifier. This will apply the Smoothing modifier to the hair. Then click on your Parameters tab, click on the General drop down menu and select Mesh Smoothing.