Is Carrara allowed in the Freebie Challenge
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Holly, we are talking about the Freebie challenge, which until fairly recently was a challenge with no money prizes just prizes donated by those who are interested in the contest, run purely for the sheer fun of doing it.
It is ironic that it is only since it has become a DAZ 3D sponsored contest and has GC prizes that anyone has even queried the rules that have lasted for the last 6 years.
If you read Jade's posts you will see that he said he would like to see a Carrara specific contest, and would help if one was started.
However the Freebie challenge has never allowed Carrara up till now, and Music and the organising team do need to work out if it should be allowed in future.
That can only be done if we can have a civilised discussion about it.
Back in the days when the rules were not in their own thread, and only given in the first post of each individual contest, I entered Carrara Renders many times. I was careful to only post them in the ones which listed "DAZ" as an allowed program.
Since they never specified DAZ Studio, I interpreted it to mean ANY DAZ Program, and since Carrara is a DAZ Program - I would have had a legitimate argument if I had won (which I never did).
But if you must have a civilized discussion, I'll reiterate the feeling that there is no excuse for excluding Carrara simply because it's not free on this site (Magazines were excluded last time I argued that, because they still had to buy the magazine) (I countered that you have to buy an internet connection unless you use cafe type hotspots - so Nothing is Really free).
And I don't buy the line about not refusing Poser because it's half the audience either. They're "The Other Half" and it's wrong to treat them preferentially over Real DAZ Customers no matter how numerous they are! That's "mob rules" mentality.
The prizes have nothing to do with this. It's been debated for as long as I remember playing around with the freebie contest.
This, like everything else, is about COWS! If The Millennium Cow were released - all disagreements amongst all people about all things - everywhere on the planet - would be forgotten. Even this one.
The Millennium Cow is the key to World Peace and people are squabbling over less important things...
It's all so confusing.
Well they do say the other man's grass is always greener
PS I am a Poser user, as are a great many of the regular participants in the freebie challenge.
Edited to add, some years ago I was told (on another site) that I shouldn't post my renders in the Poser forum or the Poser Gallery, because although they could be 100% Poser content I did not render in Poser. Nowadays of course alternative render engines abound.
I like my grass to be more Gold than Green, but I don't eat it...
Yeah - people get too picky about render engines and post work type issues.
It's all Art.
I don't complain about the rules in question here, but I do vehemently disagree with them!
Carrara has NEVER been allowed in this contest and if you used it, you did it without our knowledge. You should not have won here because we have always (or at least most of the time) (and I think one month they said it could be used) listed what programs can be used. If it wasn't listed it was because the person forgot and if you look through posts in those threads you will find the discussion of the programs allowed. The thing is.... if you don't like the rules NO one is forcing you to come here and complain about it. get over it and move on. if you want a contest with Carrara then start one..... don't come in here and whine because we don't allow it. can I just say COWS?????? then mooove over and get on with life
What?
Don't question the rules in a thread dedicated to questioning the rules?
Methinks that is a bit ... wrong. That's the point of this thread.
If you don't want to see the rules questioned, stay out of threads like this one!
And I never posted a Carrara image in a contest that either listed it as forbidden or one that correctly stated DAZ Studio on the allowed software. Only those ones which said DAZ is allowed. Surely you're not saying Carrara is not a DAZ Program?
We had a "no rules" freebie challenge last year. As I recall, it didn't get noticeably more renders than the months before and after it... but it did get less discussion abut the rules. Not "no discussion," I'll point out - "less discussion." There will always be people who want to discuss the rules, often in order to bend the rules to their own benefit. (In tabletop gaming, we call such people "rules-lawyers.")
As for this specific case, Carrara is a DAZ3D product, and this is the DAZ3D forums - there's a certain logic in allowing it to be used. However, I don't know whether it would give anyone an unfair advantage over people who use Daz Studio or Poser (having never actually used Cararra). If someone would gain an advantage simply from the particular software used, then I'd be hesitant to allow it.
(As for the other specific case, if we opened the contest up to cows, there's be a stampede, mark my words.)
When referring to DAZ I do believe it was meant to be DS as we have not listed DAZ as a program to use since there is no program called DAZ
And the reason this thread is here is because someone asked about Carrara, the question was answered. Carrara is very different from DS, Poser and Bryce. What I cant figure out is why there is still a question about it. I do believe that unless us ETOs and music change the rules, the subject is closed.
NEXT QUESTION
That was the February Challenge last year, and the thing that surprised me the most was that some people actually wanted rules, were not happy playing with no rules.
We did manage a 39 page thread anyway. Not sure how many entries there were.
You don't get to close the subject. That's the third time someone tried to quiet the dissent!
I do NOT argue the rules in the freebie challenge threads. That would be pointless and disruptive.
But in a thread meant to question the rules... YES.
We can argue the rules all we want, and now the question of questioning is closed!!
Continue questioning, people.
The subject is Not Closed just because somebody wishes it would go away.
Guess what?
It doesn't matter what they meant, only what they said. They DID say DAZ was an allowed program. I knew full well what they meant, but I also knew what they actually said Did allow Carrara.
I exploited a loophole. It's done all the time in all walks of life from Taxes to Criminal Cases in courts.
And it is NOT illegal.
It violates the spirit of the rules, but not the letter of the rules.
If anyone is at fault, it is the person who wrote the rules that particular month - not the person exploiting their error. People say DAZ all the time around here when they mean DAZ Studio. They are wrong to do so and the term DAZ, if used in a set of rules, can ONLY be interpreted as the Entire Company - NOT just one of their many products.
Now THAT discussion is Closed! (maybe this thread too if people keep telling me I am not allowed to state my feelings in the appropriate place) (this thread IS the place for airing a grievance on this topic!)
Next Question?
Next Question Spot the odd one out
Please note, however, that Barbara Carrera and Tia Carrera ARE allowed in the Freebie Challenge any time they want.
Moo?
I circled the invisible cow which is obviously the odd one out.
I don't think so. As has often been stated by Music2u4u, more than the visual quality of an image is considered in the judging. They look at composition, inventiveness, and have a particular stress on fulfilling the subject matter and it's intent. So the visual quality that Carrara can offer would not necessarily give an advantage. If so, they wouldn't allow the use of the Reality plug-in, which they have done.
Dana
I don't think so. As has often been stated by Music2u4u, more than the visual quality of an image is considered in the judging. They look at composition, inventiveness, and have a particular stress on fulfilling the subject matter and it's intent. So the visual quality that Carrara can offer would not necessarily give an advantage. If so, they wouldn't allow the use of the Reality plug-in, which they have done.
Dana
Carrara does offer an unfair advantage because of it's Dynamic Hair, Physics Engine, Terrain/Plant generators, it can import many formats the other software cannot (thus greatly expanding the list of useable freebies), and Carrara Specific Freebies. And because it's name sounds like Cowrarra. It should not be allowed.
BUT...
DAZ Studio offers an unfair advantage because it has all those Optitex Dynamic Clothing freebies which can't be used outside of D|S and all that stuff in duf format which only works in Studio. It should not be allowed either.
Poser offers an unfair advantage because it can Clothify dang near anything, and has real dynamic clothing and hair items which only work in Poser. Ban it!
Bryce offers an unfair advantage because of it's cool terrain and plant generators, ability to make skies, all those obp freebies which can't be used outside of Bryce and because it's nose is too big. Disallow it!!
All entries should be hand drawn using a Number 2 Pencil and drawn on Post-It notes only.
That would even the playing field.
Ah but wouldn't that be counted as postwork ? And we don't allow that either. :coolgrin:
Ah but wouldn't that be counted as postwork ? And we don't allow that either. :coolgrin:
BLIMEY!
You're right.
I guess we're left with ASCII Art ONLY.
...
Now that I think about it - that may be fun!
Hi Enerla, my name is music2u4u and I am the current head ETO (Executive Team Officer) for this freebie challenge thread. You could almost say I own it. It was intended to go as a one month thing, many years ago, but I picked it up, along with my friend Jamminwolfie, the second month and have taken it through 6 years to today. He dropped off in the third year, and it has been me and my ETOs since. (plus all our devoted regulars!)
We have had many folks come in here and want to play, but many have their own way of understanding things here. This challenge is a lot of fun, very competitive, and has held it's place, on the first page of the freepository, for 6 years now, that is a record here. We did it because we love our 3d fun. THAT is what has kept this challenge so alive. The free stuff is cool, but the fun is cooler and I can guarentee you, you will learn stuff here and have fun, and these nice folks give help willingly. In fact, I say this...if you have a Carrera question, you could even throw that out there, and someone here would pick it up and answer it for you...maybe two or three folks. I have watched some newbies come in here and in a few months be come great artists with the help of these kind folks up in here. So,I invite you to come share the fun with us, but there are rules, just like anywhere else in life. We didn't just make these rules up. These rules came from years of discrepencies, gripes, disagreements, out of orders, bad ideas, etc. In most cases, we heard everyone out to the fullest before we made a rule. So these rules are tried and trued.
I don't think our lovely Chohole was being offensive, I do think she is trying to help you, but even she understands how important it is to keep the rules. Lest this place would go crazy for real. After all the scuffles we have had with some folks, you get ready for the next...lol. She is a very nice lady and the "Texture Queen!" She can do miracles with textures. Just stay clear of the club she carries...hehehe.
I will make you an offer...you come join in and enter a render into the contest this month, and if you don't have a lot of fun, and end up learning something and/or get some questions answered, and possibly leave with Daz store Gift certificates, and Jaderials CG prizes, plus all third party prizes, including mine...I will personally send you a copy of my "Beverly Hillbillies Shack" model setting with over 30 movable props at no charge to you. That's how sure I am you will love this challenge, and to show you that we are some nice folks that just like to have fun.
How's that?
We determined years ago that we would only allow free programs. Free at one time or another, or just plain free. Poser debut is a free Poser program that does just about everything the commercial version does. Hexagon was free for a while, bryce is offered free, I got mine free. Daz Studio is free, and many more are...Carrera is not free, never has been. So there ya go. We went through 2 months of discussing the Carrera thing, and reached a decission "NOT TO ALLOW IT AS IT IS NOT A FREE PROGRAM". I am sorry for that, but I think there are some other threads that do support it, just not as much fun as us...lol.
We love our little challenge, and we would love to see you come join us for some fun. Each month is different. I am sure you can muster up something of a render with Daz Studio and give Carrera a rest. Would love to see your art. Thank you for your concern and please come back and see us soon. Celebi will bake you some cookies and Jeeperz will greet you with a pie in the face...chocolate cream!
music2u4u
Hi Enerla, my name is music2u4u and I am the current head ETO (Executive Team Officer) for this freebie challenge thread. You could almost say I own it. It was intended to go as a one month thing, many years ago, but I picked it up, along with my friend Jamminwolfie, the second month and have taken it through 6 years to today. He dropped off in the third year, and it has been me and my ETOs since. (plus all our devoted regulars!)
We have had many folks come in here and want to play, but many have their own way of understanding things here. This challenge is a lot of fun, very competitive, and has held it's place, on the first page of the freepository, for 6 years now, that is a record here. We did it because we love our 3d fun. THAT is what has kept this challenge so alive. The free stuff is cool, but the fun is cooler and I can guarentee you, you will learn stuff here and have fun, and these nice folks give help willingly. In fact, I say this...if you have a Carrera question, you could even throw that out there, and someone here would pick it up and answer it for you...maybe two or three folks. I have watched some newbies come in here and in a few months be come great artists with the help of these kind folks up in here. So,I invite you to come share the fun with us, but there are rules, just like anywhere else in life. We didn't just make these rules up. These rules came from years of discrepencies, gripes, disagreements, out of orders, bad ideas, etc. In most cases, we heard everyone out to the fullest before we made a rule. So these rules are tried and trued.
I don't think our lovely Chohole was being offensive, I do think she is trying to help you, but even she understands how important it is to keep the rules. Lest this place would go crazy for real. After all the scuffles we have had with some folks, you get ready for the next...lol. She is a very nice lady and the "Texture Queen!" She can do miracles with textures. Just stay clear of the club she carries...hehehe.
I will make you an offer...you come join in and enter a render into the contest this month, and if you don't have a lot of fun, and end up learning something and/or get some questions answered, and possibly leave with Daz store Gift certificates, and Jaderials CG prizes, plus all third party prizes, including mine...I will personally send you a copy of my "Beverly Hillbillies Shack" model setting with over 30 movable props at no charge to you. That's how sure I am you will love this challenge, and to show you that we are some nice folks that just like to have fun.
How's that?
We determined years ago that we would only allow free programs. Free at one time or another, or just plain free. Poser debut is a free Poser program that does just about everything the commercial version does. Hexagon was free for a while, bryce is offered free, I got mine free. Daz Studio is free, and many more are...Carrera is not free, never has been. So there ya go. We went through 2 months of discussing the Carrera thing, and reached a decission "NOT TO ALLOW IT AS IT IS NOT A FREE PROGRAM". I am sorry for that, but I think there are some other threads that do support it, just not as much fun as us...lol.
We love our little challenge, and we would love to see you come join us for some fun. Each month is different. I am sure you can muster up something of a render with Daz Studio and give Carrera a rest. Would love to see your art. Thank you for your concern and please come back and see us soon. Celebi will bake you some cookies and Jeeperz will greet you with a pie in the face...chocolate cream!
music2u4u
that's bull - they have giving version of Carrara away for free
5 , 6, 7, 8 .
Who is "they"?
DAZ3D only has Carrara 8 in their store and it's priced at $149.95 for the standard and $285.00 (at 48% off) for the pro version. In either case that does not equal free.
To be truly accurate, it has been possible in the past to get a copy of Carrara on a magazine, or included in a book, but those don't count as free, because you pay for the Cover CD in the price of the magazine. And they are usually an older version, although Daz has allowed them to be used to get on the upgrade path for the newer (purchased from DAZ 3D) versions.
I am sure about the exact opposite.
I play a lot of pen and paper RPGs, and wanted a tool for character art, some people suggested taking screenshots from games and using their character design tools. I was happy with that. For some time. But when I was fed up with EA, people said I should start Poser. I went to their page, seen which version of Poser they are going to sell. They offered preorder for Poser Pro 2012 and some other stuff as well. So I went and bought that stuff.
After a few renders people said DAZ Studio is easier to use, etc. so I came to DAZ Store. Soon I bought a DAZ Studio 4 Pro. Both in hopes of the easy to create images that only take minutes to create and can be done without actual skills, or without too much time.
Since then I learned how can I play with lights, how can I modify shader settings (say for a drow character), how primitives can help me (as walls, or as the item I shown in this thread), and I can continue the list for ages. But first and foremost I learned one thing: A good image requires time and effort.
If I would be motivated by GCs and rewards, I would be even motivated to upload a lot of stuff I shared on various pages to DeviantArt and offer them as print. I would upload even more renders, etc. and I am sure that these options and ability to sell custom models created in Carrara would both lead to money. I don't say this because my renders are good enough for that, but because I know that people who win contests tend to be good enough for that as well. So the issue isn't with this. So I don't care about this.
If I move back to DAZ Studio for this contest, I wouldn't have my Carrara questions, so I wouldn't have a chance to ask them, And I highly doubt that if for the contest I can't use Carrara, and won't have / ask questions, you would have a chance to answer any unasked questions, and it would only take away the time I could use to learn Carrara, experiment with it, and have fun. I doubt if I feel this way it could be any fun.
I told you how most Poser versions aren't free. Others shown how Carrara was given out for free before. I shown how you allow *paid* render engines like Realism plug in, which have no free versions. So sorry, but after this I am not going to believe any argument that speaks about free / non free difference. And I doubt if you know what I consider fun than me.
Your contest. Your decision.
But you have to understand: I have strong reasons to dislike it. And when the arguments here are fishy and you try to tell me what should I enjoy, what should I consider fun. Sadly at this point I feel I can seek advice in more friendly places, where people actually care about what I see as fun and not trying to tell me what should I feel fun.
With these rules your contest is a waste of time for me. And I don't find the organizers of this contest fair, helpful or friendly. I only came back because of the PM you sent me, but you see my opinion, and I wasted enough time on this contest of yours already.
WE allowed the reality plugin for one contest and only one contest, and that was very much an unusual thing for us to do. It was said at the time that it was a one off contest.
Please remember the reason's for the Freebie challenge, as outlined by Music, specifically it is a fun contest, where the emphasis is on having fun as much as (if not more so) making great renders.
If you want to learn as you render then Why don't you investigate the contests in the New Users forum, which are set up as learning contests and usually have no software restrictions. Again there is occasionally an exception, as with last months contest, which featured Bryce.
We do have a few Carrara New Users who join us in the New users Contests. These contests are two part, you start in the WIP thread, which is where you get feedback, hints and tips and any questions you may have answered to the best of our ability. Once you feel your render is as good as it gets, then you move it to the actual contest thread for judging. There are prizes, and each month we are sponsored by a DAZ PA, who will offer a prize or prizes as well.
So this month we have GCs from DAZ 3D as usual, and the featured PA is Ignis Serpentis
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/17987/
Each month we tackle a specific topic, as you will see if you look at some of the other contests in that forum.
There is also a thread in the NU contest forum where you can post your ideas of what you would possibly like to see in the NU Contests
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/4146/
BLIMEY!
You're right.
I guess we're left with ASCII Art ONLY.
...
Now that I think about it - that may be fun!
I think we have a winner!
Dana
I am sure about the exact opposite.
I play a lot of pen and paper RPGs, and wanted a tool for character art, some people suggested taking screenshots from games and using their character design tools. I was happy with that. For some time. But when I was fed up with EA, people said I should start Poser. I went to their page, seen which version of Poser they are going to sell. They offered preorder for Poser Pro 2012 and some other stuff as well. So I went and bought that stuff.
After a few renders people said DAZ Studio is easier to use, etc. so I came to DAZ Store. Soon I bought a DAZ Studio 4 Pro. Both in hopes of the easy to create images that only take minutes to create and can be done without actual skills, or without too much time.
Since then I learned how can I play with lights, how can I modify shader settings (say for a drow character), how primitives can help me (as walls, or as the item I shown in this thread), and I can continue the list for ages. But first and foremost I learned one thing: A good image requires time and effort.
If I would be motivated by GCs and rewards, I would be even motivated to upload a lot of stuff I shared on various pages to DeviantArt and offer them as print. I would upload even more renders, etc. and I am sure that these options and ability to sell custom models created in Carrara would both lead to money. I don't say this because my renders are good enough for that, but because I know that people who win contests tend to be good enough for that as well. So the issue isn't with this. So I don't care about this.
If I move back to DAZ Studio for this contest, I wouldn't have my Carrara questions, so I wouldn't have a chance to ask them, And I highly doubt that if for the contest I can't use Carrara, and won't have / ask questions, you would have a chance to answer any unasked questions, and it would only take away the time I could use to learn Carrara, experiment with it, and have fun. I doubt if I feel this way it could be any fun.
I told you how most Poser versions aren't free. Others shown how Carrara was given out for free before. I shown how you allow *paid* render engines like Realism plug in, which have no free versions. So sorry, but after this I am not going to believe any argument that speaks about free / non free difference. And I doubt if you know what I consider fun than me.
Your contest. Your decision.
But you have to understand: I have strong reasons to dislike it. And when the arguments here are fishy and you try to tell me what should I enjoy, what should I consider fun. Sadly at this point I feel I can seek advice in more friendly places, where people actually care about what I see as fun and not trying to tell me what should I feel fun.
With these rules your contest is a waste of time for me. And I don't find the organizers of this contest fair, helpful or friendly. I only came back because of the PM you sent me, but you see my opinion, and I wasted enough time on this contest of yours already.
the thing is Enerla, we have repeatedly stated why Poser is allowed and Carrara not,and yes, I have seen Carrara on c-net for free, but you are forgetting one thing that you have even stated in your own post.
You don't like our rules, so..... you don't have to come play. There are many contests and threads out there for you to go to and use the program you like. You DON'T have to change your program if you don't enter this contest. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I don't see why this thread is even continuing to exist other than for you and Sockratease to keep complaining that you think Carrera should be allowed in our contest. Carrera DOES give an unfair advantage to the end result in renders, and someone with a higher level of skills will end up winning every month. Our contest is out there to showcase what can be done without going to great lengths and a large expense to accomplish it. When people who are on the more professional level of skills comes in it tends to tip the scales in their favor every month and the rest tend not to want to enter anymore. The people who enter this contest are mostly not on that level of skills, those that are is why we don't allow postwork, that way it gives everyone a level playing field and this is one of the reasons are contest has lasted all these years, As music stated, the rules were very carefully thought out and work for us in this competition. If they don't work for you that's fine, don't enter. No one is twisting your arm and telling you to you have to change your program, just if you want to enter THIS contest, I'm pretty sure they are other contests out there that are more suited to your needs and requirements. Please let this rest you two, it's long past time to let it go. We are NOT going to change the Carrera rule for you and that is that. End of discussion. If you want to come play in our contest then you need to check your attitude at the door, accept the rules, and enjoy yourself. If that isn't possible then I hope you can find a thread and contest that will accomplish that for you. Or maybe you can start your own contest that you allow Carrera in. Either way this discussion should be closed.
It *was* one off contest? Strange.
Current general rules state it *is* allowed as one of the 3 allowed commercial products.
Current monthly rules state it *is* allowed as one of the 3 allowed commercial products this month.
So why the past tense?
And it is acceptable if you want to limit what software can be used. And if you would say, most of the allowed software are consumer product, while Carrara is often used by professionals, it could be reasonable. Even if you just state: you don't like it. Or it is much harder to judge them. But if you state they cannot be used because they are commercial, and jump on me stating how it is nonfree, when you allow several different commercial products, including renderers, whole suites, etc. it is bad.
And I am sure it would be equally bad if I would just point to free software (Blender, 123D, etc) now.
You point to newbie contest. I am sure you are part of that contest as well. I have considered that one when you first named it. Right now, I just dropped the idea. Why? Because you referred the people behind that forum as "We".
Asked about Carrara, but I knew others used it. But a fair and honest no would be acceptable.
But when your whole argument is centered on an excuse stating it isn't free, when I see you allow several nonfree options... So when you portray commercial nature of Carrara as an absolute reason, that automatically excludes it... Well you aren't that honest. And the issue with "past tense" for current rules just made it more clear. If I don't see you as honest and fair, why should I consider *any* contests here?
Despite requests for civility the discussion continues to degenerate into arguments and personal attacks, and as such will be locked.