Additional Sculpting Tools
Dartanbeck
Posts: 21,522
I haven't really begun to actually model on a serious level yet, but I'm planning to. From my earlier stints into software like 3ds max, Maya, and so fourth, I've learned enough to know that I am confident in my skills in this regard. The more a person gets used to the various tool and functions the software offers, the less it behaves like software and just becomes another tool.
When it comes to Vertex modeling, I'm actually really "at home" feeling in Carrara. So far all I ever really do is Box modeling, which can take me pretty much everywhere I've ever wanted to go with modeling in the above named apps. I've yet to push Carrara to those degrees, but so far it seems to handle it's own.
Anyways, there are 3d modeling apps and there are sculpting apps. Some, like Blender,( I think?), do both. The big examples of sculpting apps that come to mind are Mud Box and Z-Brush. Z-Brush has such a strong reputation and following that it becomes hard to even look at Mud Box, being much more expensive... unless of course you really know your sculpting features and know more about their differences.
Stu uses 3d Coat, and I was just about to pester him some more in his physics thread and decided to stop derailing his thread and start my own. Sorry Stu. If any of you have seen Stu's work in 3d Coat, you begin to find it hard to even look at Z-Brush, being so much more in cost. I just watched the intro video on the 3d Coat site before clicking the 'Buy' tab to check the cost. For what that does, it sure is reasonable.
I own Hexagon, but have barely even opened it's doors yet. I cannot help but remembering things that I've seen at the "What is Hexagon" page, here at Daz3d, especially where it says:
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 'Microdisplacement Brushes" like the tools used in Z-Brush sculpting? or 3d Coat, etc.,?"Sculpt - The new geometry and high-resolution relief (microdisplacement) brushes bring unique and highly creative tools to refine and add extremely fine details to the 3D models."
If that's not what I'm thinking, have a quick look at the Brush Modeling caption, and the next two features mentioned in "What's New in Hexagon", if you would. Pretty exciting stuff, if you're like me, and looking to get into 3d sculpting. Doesn't it look like Hex is a sculpting app in addition to a modeler?
Daz3d also sells Curvy 3d Pro version 2.0 by Aartform, and at their website they have a good assortment of short videos that make it look an awful lot like 3d Coat, unless I'm just mistaken there. If you can't tell, I'm new to this portion of the game.
From becoming involved in a bundle of software, I ended up becoming a registered owner of Curvy 3d 1.6 and I'm pretty excited about it. Being incredibly swamped right now, I've only had a few seconds in that software when I initially plugged in my Wacom Tablet to test it out. Very strange, yet incredibly cool, how you do all of your modeling by drawing... you guessed it... curves! Draw your first curve and then another one to alter the first, and so on. Depending on the brush your using, you can just sculpt away either adding, subtracting, texturing, painting, whatever else it does.
So to me, it appears that I currently own two sculptor apps. One of my better skills as an artist all throughout my life has been sculpting. Mostly with stone, but I also enjoy making Warhammer 40K, Warhammer and D&D miniatures with sculptor's Epoxy as well - and I've even purchase pewter and plastic mini's when I couldn't find what I was looking for, and sculpt the existing one's into what I did want.
Then when my buddy turned me on to 3ds, I was amazed at how similar the concepts can be. But these sculptor apps are quite amazing at actually modelling in the fine details rather effortlessly compared to box modeling, which I still love to do.
I'm looking for any words I can get from anyone who has used any sculptor apps and might have anything to say about them. Negative, positive, I don't care. I'd really like to hear about your experiences, likes, dislikes, whatever. 3d Coat looks like it's fantastic. And an app at that price is much easier for me to strive for than something like Mudbox or 3ds. Hexagon is already here, as is Curvy 3d and I'm very interested in both - even though I'm also not afraid to expand. Finally, just because Z-Brush and Mudbox seem out of reach right now, tomorrow could be another day entirely. So I'm very interested to hear from owners/previous users of those as well.
Thanks in advance for anything you'd like to share.
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Comments
sorry re read the question and realised the reply was way off :)
heh, yes I know that!
okay so way off tiopic
but
apply detail displacement map in car
export resulting mesh after allowing subdivison
reduce polys of said mesh with meshlab while ticking box that says : keep mesh quality (says something like that)
presto ... a mesh sculpted with photoshop ;)O
I have both Zbrush and 3DCoat. I find myself going to 3DCoat more and more because it has a better work flow from concept to finish without the jumping through the multi-layered menus that Zbrush has.
The advantages of Zbrush over 3DCoat:
- Can, in my opinion put in better detail in painting and some instances finer control of manipulating meshes.
- Has Go-Z for Carrara ( and most other software apps)
- Haven't paid for an upgrade since version 2.0 (It's now up to 4.5)
- Is the preferred application that the CG industry likes to see on an artist's mastery of software tools
- Has very fine UV tools
The advantages of 3DCoat over Zbrush
- Is less expensive (can get a student version for $99)
see the details and limitations of student and for upgrade at the URL below:
http://3d-coat.com/buy-now/
- Is an easier application to learn and use IMHO (can click and pick, start sculpting rapidly)
- Haven't paid for an upgrade since version 2.X (4.0 version is in beta now and free to use 3DCoat who have version 3.7 or higher)
- Has one of the best Re-Topology functions on the planet earth
- Has superior UV tool
- Has 3D Applink to many softwares (but not Carrara)
Disadvantages of Zbrush
- Lot of menu jumping or slider/button tweaking, work flow is more difficult to master IMHO
- Is more expensive to get into currently
- Training costs more in general for ZBrush (but does has free training on its Website)
- Based in U.S.A.
Disadvantage of 3DCoat
- No direct link to Carrara (because the tools for Carrara development are broken/inadequate) although obj import works just fine
(oddly enough there is an application to go from 3DCoat to Zbrush, so if you have both...then no problems getting into Carrara directly)
- Most training is free, although there are some low cost training sold out there (most places like Gnomon or Digital Tutors have snubbed 3Dcoat training)
- Based in Ukraine (although the interaction via the Web has been nothing but seamless)
-------------------
Here is an example of a simple work flow I did in a few (less than 3.5?) hours in 3DCoat from Hexagon to Block out to a full sculpt
1. Image one: rough blocking of Komodo dragon
2. Image two: Komodo dragon sculpt in 3DCoat
3. Painting takes longer(because I'm not skilled at it), but is very powerful with layers and direct link to Photoshop
Note: There is no need to block out a sculpt, I just find it easier to do for my personal preference)
Note 2: I'm old, no formal art training and have a cataract in one eye (how's that for excuses) :)
There are also some nice attributes to 3DCoat, many brushes, styles and functions that have easy access.
There is an addition of an articulated mannequin in version 4.1 beta, which is quite handy for posing while sculpting.
(see image 3)
Posed Mannequin (see image 4)
So as you can tell I'm partial to 3DCoat as I find it easier to work with because I like the flow.
If that's not what I'm thinking, have a quick look at the Brush Modeling caption, and the next two features mentioned in "What's New in Hexagon", if you would. Pretty exciting stuff, if you're like me, and looking to get into 3d sculpting. Doesn't it look like Hex is a sculpting app in addition to a modeler?
Daz3d also sells Curvy 3d Pro version 2.0 by Aartform, and at their website they have a good assortment of short videos that make it look an awful lot like 3d Coat, unless I'm just mistaken there. If you can't tell, I'm new to this portion of the game.
From becoming involved in a bundle of software, I ended up becoming a registered owner of Curvy 3d 1.6 and I'm pretty excited about it. Being incredibly swamped right now, I've only had a few seconds in that software when I initially plugged in my Wacom Tablet to test it out. Very strange, yet incredibly cool, how you do all of your modeling by drawing... you guessed it... curves! Draw your first curve and then another one to alter the first, and so on. Depending on the brush your using, you can just sculpt away either adding, subtracting, texturing, painting, whatever else it does.
So to me, it appears that I currently own two sculptor apps. One of my better skills as an artist all throughout my life has been sculpting. Mostly with stone, but I also enjoy making Warhammer 40K, Warhammer and D&D miniatures with sculptor's Epoxy as well - and I've even purchase pewter and plastic mini's when I couldn't find what I was looking for, and sculpt the existing one's into what I did want.
Then when my buddy turned me on to 3ds, I was amazed at how similar the concepts can be. But these sculptor apps are quite amazing at actually modelling in the fine details rather effortlessly compared to box modeling, which I still love to do.
I'm looking for any words I can get from anyone who has used any sculptor apps and might have anything to say about them. Negative, positive, I don't care. I'd really like to hear about your experiences, likes, dislikes, whatever. 3d Coat looks like it's fantastic. And an app at that price is much easier for me to strive for than something like Mudbox or 3ds. Hexagon is already here, as is Curvy 3d and I'm very interested in both - even though I'm also not afraid to expand. Finally, just because Z-Brush and Mudbox seem out of reach right now, tomorrow could be another day entirely. So I'm very interested to hear from owners/previous users of those as well.
Thanks in advance for anything you'd like to share.
I like Curvy3D - different . Use it with Hex in past .
I like Hex .
I like Spore the best -so easy to use . -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(2008_video_game)
The others cost to much for me .
edit to add - use Sculptris from Z-brush - it's free and works better for me then Z-brush
http://pixologic.com/sculptris/
I like what Design Acrobat said about 3d-coat. I picked it up as a student edition and then got the upgrade when it was on sale. I can't afford Z-Brush. I keep poking at the need for daz to step into the Applink (I can hope).
One of the nice thing if you like to see things develop you can get on the developers twitter feed and see what is being worked on being added/fixed/improved etc you can see whats going on through the posts and access to the developer beta if you choose too.
There is a carraraist on the forums (3d-coat ) that I have seen post some things that he has done back and forth I will see if I can find it.
some interviews with some artists on using 3d-coat http://3d-coat.com/community/interviews/
Holy cow this is my THIRD attempt at posting on this thread, I am punching the keys really hard now....GRRRRRR.
Have you tried Sculptris an excellent introduction to sculpting.
Ditto on Su's advice,. sculptris is good and fun to learn with,.
Also 3D coat, which I have, ...but haven't really got into yet,.
On the question about microdisplacement in Hexagon,. versus,... other apps.
This is displacement painting, (shaping the existing geometry based on a grey-scale image map)
where as Z-Brush or 3D-coat can actually add geometry.as well as displace and move geometry.
Carrara can also be used to "paint" with displacement brushes, in the Vertex modeller.
there's also a "Magnet" tool, in the vertex modeller which can be used to Push / Pull areas of your model, almost like the "soft selection" fall off area does,.
The magnet tool can work on a selection of vertices / polygons, and can be restricted using Ctrl / Shift to make it horizontal / vertical.
if you have time. experiment with using the Magnet tool in the vertex modeller,... then add some smoothing to your model, and try using some displacement brushes to paint displacement.
Note: The more levels of subdivision smoothing you apply, the more detailed any displacement effect will be when painted.
:)
Thanks for the great replies!
Head Wax: Thanks for that. I'm sure I'll put that to good use!
Design Acrobat: Wow. Quite the nice breakdown! Thanks for this. The universal manipulator in 3d Coat looks familiar to the one I love and use all the time! lol
bigh: Cool to hear from the Curvy side of things. One of the things I'm keen on Curvy about is the direct link to Dogwaffle - so does Anim8or. I'll have to check out Spore.
Milo: Yeah, the price is pretty decent for such a highly recommended app. I like Design Acrobat's write-up too. Very cool. Never tried Twitter or Facebook yet.
Stu: I have tried Sculptris and got a bit addicted to it. I cannot remember what it was lacking that began my search for a more solid solution. It's great, though. I'll box model in Carrara, and open it in Sculptris and have a go! I enjoyed the controls available on the tools themselves.
3dage: Okay, so that's what they're talking about. Funny that I've not tried magnets or displacement painting yet in Carrara - so many things this bad boy can do - the mind boggles! lol
I'll certainly include my own Carrara as a place to look in this regard! Thanks man!
Yet another idea that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is Blender. I've been browsing around a bit and found some interesting information (at the Blender Site, actually) about how in depth this modeler has become since I've tried it way back when. It certainly can sculpt. And it can box model.
One thing I find strange in both 3d Coat and Z-Brush is their odd method of starting from scratch. But if that's a concern, what about Curvy 3d? Wow! That fine little app is made on the idea that the user doesn't ever want to box model, ever! lol
Very col though... Thanks. I have a lot to look at and consider.
Adding to what 3dage wrote - don't discount Hex's sculpting abilities. It doesn't have all the fancy Voxel and adding geometry as you brush, but is very capable in the right hands. Attached is a pic of a sculpt done by the amazingly good illustrator Nate Owens, who pops into the Hex forum on occasion.
This was done from a basic cube - 177K polys, every one a quad, with correct edge-looping for animated expressions, which you won't get with a dedicated sculpture app. You could even export a bump map of the detail to be used as a displacement map on a lower-poly version of the model.
No reason it couldn't be done in Carrara - it's all in the hands of the artist!
The latest Blender has upgraded sculpting so that it works the same as Sculptris, with more brushes. So you could build a base model, sculpt detail, retopo, UV map, texture, rig, animate and render without leaving. Truly amazing.
3D Coat has an Applink to NVil, the really up-and-coming only stand-alone modeling app in active development I know of.
Just to correct a small point - Anim8or is not connected to Dogwaffle - in the video he simply used Anim8or as a demo because it is free - you could use any modeling/rendering app for the same purpose of making an animated brush in Dogwaffle:)
I want to look more at blender for the match move stuff as I couldn't afford the upgrade that passed for PFHoe.
Not sure what you mean by odd method of starting from scratch? You can bring in models you have done and convert them into solids at least I think you can in 3d-coat. Without looking at the applink specs again there is either 9 or 12 connections they want the applink to cover which technically can be done manually for coming in with data from other apps.
I've got Z-Brush and don't use it that much. Mostly to do some touch up work.. It was one of those I'll save for a few months to purchase it items.
One advantage of Z-Brush is when you buy it you automatically get any updates (full newer versions) for free.
Try Sculptris which is free that was recommended if you like Sculptris you may want to get Z-Brush at some point.
I am looking at getting Curvy at some point since it does integrate with Project Dogwaffle and it isn't expensive.
now here's a different program for modeling - Groboto
http://www.groboto.com/v3/
Yeah, Blender looks really cool. Gonna have to check that one out no matter what, eh? ;)
One advantage of Z-Brush is when you buy it you automatically get any updates (full newer versions) for free.
Try Sculptris which is free that was recommended if you like Sculptris you may want to get Z-Brush at some point.
I am looking at getting Curvy at some point since it does integrate with Project Dogwaffle and it isn't expensive.
I tried Curvy a little last night. Mind you, a have zero experience in it yet. I was using a mouse and I was horrible - was much easier with a Tablet... but hat's just me, athis point.
As Milo was saying:
Just the fact that things connect isn't really that big of a deal. Simply applying textures doesn't really need a "Go To" button. But I'm glad that I own it and look forward to playing.
After reading Roygee's post, it reminds me of why I feel wierd when ever I'm sculpting. Something great can be said for starting with a simple cube and extruding and shaping vertices, all by hand, evenly as you go for an optimized mesh as a result. With Carrara's subdivision modeling we can do that too. But one thing that's popular with Z-Brush in the industry is taking a well-made mesh like that, and then bring it into Z-Brush and detail it so well that you can paint the texture on and have an extreme detail model and shoot a Normal of that, then what? I believe that's when you re-topologize to get the lower res model to which the Normal map goes? Something like that.
I'm beginning to feel a certain urge to make models and custom shape morphs and everything else.
been around for years - check it out
http://amabilis.com/
Just for clarification,. i thought i'd post some quick pic's to explain.
The Magnet "modelling tool" is different from the "magnet" in the assembly room, (which is more of an animation deformer / helper thing)
In the Vertex Modeller,. you can use the magnet to push and pull areas of the mesh.
The first example pic is a text object which is being bent using the magnet,.. simple,. bit it show the magnet tools and the Magnet "Gizmo" you see when you're working with that tool.
In the second example,. I used a Vertex Grid (Plane) and then used the Magnet tool to sculpt the terrain shape,. I then used the Bridge tool to create a bridge, ( I also used the magnet to bend the bridge a little) and finally used some displacement painting to add more roughness to the side walls.
I also added a plane, with a watery shader in the assembly room, and a terrain shader to the mesh.
these are quick and simple examples, but I hope this explains the tool better, and perhaps sparks some creative thoughts.
.
I don't know how you'd classify this program, but the results are certainly intriguing:
http://www.meshmixer.com/
Here is a Link to video that compares strengths and weaknesses Hexagon / Z brush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC7kKWR6Nws
may help your decisions
thanks for the ixplication Andy! nice job on the terrain!
Thanks HeadWax :)
it gets better with some more time, and some scale and shader adjustments,. plus a few plants
Very interesting, too. You see? Carrara has many surprises up the sleeve. And that newer gear tutorial was demonstrating the the VM also has it's own modifiers and replicators, too. It would be fun to go through the modeler and document it.
I'll have to check out 007's video: Hex vs Z-Brush. I could certainly see that being an unfair contest at first. But I can think of some situations where Hexagon could walk circles around Z-Brush if he right person was conducting the experiment. Like Roygee was saying earlier, a well designed topology with the entire mesh being made up of even quads is also an important thing in the CG world. But it is often at that stage where the profesional takes the mesh into Z. So...
It's an interesting experiment, and I'm really glad that I've started this thread. It has opened up an investigation that I really don't have enough time to truly dig deeply into - but has given me the resources to continue as time frees up. And then with all of these great posts from all of you, with your thoughts and the demo video to watch here and there... it's really amazing how truly expanssive this field can be, while also remaining to be a fairly tight circle.
As I watch some of the videos regarding new and updated modelers, and the features they've added, and then come back and see the reports of others modeler tools within Carrara that are relatively unknown (by me), knowing that there are many other tools within the Carrara Vertex Modeler that many other modelers might not have, I'm not really seeing the huge "lacking of tools and features" that I was expecting by reading some of the gloomier reports about Carrara and its Modelers. Carrara even has a Metaball modeler! I've seen the Lynda.com video: Carrara 5 Essential Training with Jack Whitney and he covers the three modeler in an 'essentials' style look - which is rather complete for illustrating what's there, and from that, I already knew that Carrara should be able to give me what "I" needed prior to my Carrara 6 Pro purchase. The simple models I have created in Carrara didn't require any fancy algorithms or modifiers, etc., they were simple examples of straight-forward box modeling. Since I was going for los-res models, I even left some of my quads more elongated than they should be, a decision I made at the point that I made my first set of elongated quads. Point being, I surely didn't have to.
All of the times I've gone in and built a vertex model within Carrara have gone exactly as I would expect - granted, simple models here. My 3d mentor tossed a book on the desk and said: "Make a head today. The book was some 3d animation bible, from what I remember. It had a sort of step by step illustrated guide for building a 3d Human, starting with the head, using the extrusion method. I was a bit nervous, but by the time he returned at the end of the day, my bust was fairly complete except I had not yet made eyeballs or the inner mouth and teeth and such. Sure I took too long if I were just modeling on my own, but I was reading a book, following his lead, going back and re-reading...
These are the same principals I model with today. It's amazing how much detail you can get down to without ever entering a sculpt-mode. Sculpting software, however, has added something that production houses love - speed. The rest of the world loves the natural look and feel you can add while sculpting - the idea of using Normal Maps, etc.,
Looking further and further into this topic as well as the things going on like NVil, suggested by Roygee, and the huge steps of progresion being made on Blender will be an excellent templete for adding ideas to the minds of the developers for future Carrara features. But for right now, especially since I haven't enough time to experiment with trial demos and such, I'll not be buying anything, and just exploring deeper into my own abilities within my favorite 3d app in the whole world - Carrara Pro.
Dartanbeck or others,
Been spend an hour looking for tutorials on displacement painting or brush in carrara and now thinking maybe this is only in 8.5 pro version (I only bought 8.5 standard to see if it was enough for me and to get started...at the time the price seemed doubled) just wanting to know if the reason I am not seeing how to do this is because the tools are literally missing (only in pro?)