Another messed up rig
More2burn
Posts: 0
Can you nest IK controller objects like in other programs or not? Is there a way to set the bones back to just bones without the changes made to by adding IK chains? I deleted the IK controller but now when I go to add another, I don't see it even though it shows up in Undo. I hope to God they work on the IK stuff for the next release.
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By, "nest IK controller objects", can you give an example.
Only know how to remove multiple Inverse Kinematics modifiers at once(terminators remain). Select the parent bone/object(or root, hip etc.). In the assemble room Animation dropdown menu select, 'Set IK and Constraints' and check 'Remove the IK Modifier from each tree'.
Hi More2Burn :)
You can create a "Group" of any object in carrara,.
There's a difference between objects placed in a Group, and objects parented in the instance list.
Objects in a Group,. or Animated group, can be moved independently within the group, or, the objects will all move, when you move the "Group" which contains all the objects.
If you Drag an object, onto another object,. it becomes parented to that objects,. and becomes the Child.
If you move the parent object, then the child will follow.
To reset the bones, and not change any IK or constraints:
Select your model,. go to the Animation menu, and choose (Send bones to reference position)
The "reference position" is created when you attach the bones to the model,. it's like a default reset for your rig, but it should retain all the constraints and any IK you've added.
How do you get rid of the terminators?
I'm not sure why that menu doesn't remove the IK Terminator modifiers as well. It seems logical that it should remove both. It might have something to do with animation or keyframes(?). I'll look for more info. You can remove modifiers one at a time by highlighting(clicking) the modifiers name bar, and then clicking on the minus "-" symbol.
Ok, good. As long as I have a way to remove them. I tried to select it before but didn't click in the correct place I guess. Thanks, I thought there was no way to remove them and that seemed very odd. Ya, it would be cool if there was another option or something under animation to remove them though. Thanks
Can't say why it doesn't remove the IK terminator, but honestly, I find that IK works fine for me. So do target helpers.
As to tbwoq's way to remove the terminator, here's a screen shot.
You can either trap them in a large metal pressing plant, and crush them,. or melt them in liquid metal,. note that freezing them with liquid nitrogen doesn't work well. also, make sure that you've not sent them back from the future to protect you from other terminators.
or,. Click in the blank space, to the left of the text, in the title bar of the modifiers tab, which will select (highlight in white) the modifier,.
then you can click the Minus button at the top of the modifiers tab.
see Pic
Removing terminators or IK automatically, would be wrong if the intention was simply to reset the bones to the reference pose.
Normally there are only a few bones which would have IK helpers or IK terminators applied to them, and since they're all modifiers it's a relatively simple process to switch them off, or remove the modifiers.
That is,... it's simple once you've figured out how to select the modifiers and delete them
Got rid of the Terminators. (Without the use of a time machine, lol.)
I keep running into bugs though. The worst ones now are... When I try and organize the Ik controllers under the "Instance" tab by selecting all controllers for the fingers and wrist, then move them, so they will all be together in the list. (right now there are a few others for the back, etc. in the mix.) when you organize them. NOT nest them but organize them in that way... The arm bugs out.
How this can happen is beyond me. Is this a known bug?
The other big bug I found is when you DO nest the controllers for the fingers to the wrist controller, the controllers re-size themselves. You can fix them, but then nest to the shoulder controller and when you rescale to fix again, the bones re-size when you re-scale the controllers. This is a bad bug too.
Are they working on improvements, bug fixes or additions to all this stuff for the next release?
Here are some minor bugs I've found too:
If you click on two joints and go to Animation, orient joints, A joint can bug out if you undo it.
If you duplicate bones with sym under the edit menu, and if the bones have an IK chain on them. The duplicated side can disappear.
H More2burn :)
can you post some pic of the instance list,. showing how you're organising the helpers.
You can make a group, called helpers,. then add all the helpers to that group,. (which could also have nested groups within that group)
The helpers shouldn't be part of the figure's hierarchy,. but for easy saving etc,. you can group the figure and it's helper objects together in an "Animated group" this preserves the figure's hierarchy, as it creates a container,. where the figure,. and any other objects like the helpers, can be placed together, but are not connected by a single hierarchy.
you should only see scale or position movements of helpers if you're linking something which is already linked somewhere else
like parenting an IK helper to a figure, or Grouping objects which are already constrained in some way,.
Also. the distortion or unexpected movement of bones is another indicator that something is conflicting with something else,..
IK vs Constraint. vs Hierarchy etc.
In the first pic I selected them. The next I place them anywhere and it bugs out. I tried to put all controllers above everything and it does the same thing.
Pic 2, bugged out.
Top of instance tab
Mid of instance tab.
"You can make a group, called helpers,. then add all the helpers to that group,. (which could also have nested groups within that group)"
Do you mean "Animated Group?", if not how?
Strange way of doing the the shoulders.
Are you using target helpers for each of the fingers as well? Are you using IK terminators at the hand/wrist for the IK in the fingers? With all the target helpers I wonder if Carrara is getting confused or if there's some error in what's being tracked? Are you sure you're not over complicating the rig?
I think the complexity of the way you're working with, and learning how to use carrara, isn't helping you, or anyone trying to help,.
it's impossible to see what relationships the target helpers have with whatever bones,. or what constraints apply to those bones,. or the helpers,. just from the screen shots,.
Since your screen shots don't show how things are connected, controlled, and constrained,. it's really hard to say ..Oh, it's that bit there.
It doesn't look like there's anything wrong from those images.
If you have any objects in a scene,. which are not Connected, or constrained,. then moving them around on the instance list should not effect any other objects.
If you have Constrained or parented an object, (limited it's movement) then you move the position of that within the hierarchy, then there will be a conflict, since you're changing the structure of something which is being restricted by it's own structure.
The fact that this is happening points to some issue with conflicting constraints. limits, or parent / child relationships.
I just want to check a couple of things,..
You're not using "Duplicate with symmetry" to create any parts of the Bones or helpers ?
have you tried animating in carrara without all the helper objects ?
Have you tried making a Minimal set of helpers, which work,. then adding more.
If you're having issues,. then you should create as simplistic a setup as you can,. bearing in mind that this is a learning process.
I'd create the simplest rig you can (without duplication) and make sure it works,. then you can add more controllers to it
Grouping:
You can select a bunch of object and add them to a Group, or Animated group,, and you can rename that group to be anything you want,. ...that's what I meant when I said create a group called helpers. ...I didn't mean to add more confusion. My bad.
The difference between a Group,. and an Animated group, is that the Animated Group, also creates an NLA track for that group,. so in the case of a Figure with bones,. making that into an Animated group gives you the ability to create NLA clips and poses from key-frame animation,.
This is also useful if you're animating IK target helpers,. since the animation can be saved as an NLA clip, and that can clear the key-frames from your time-line, to allow you to start again, to create another animation.
One final question,.. if I can ask
What do you want to do with this rig ?
The reason I asked is because of a recent thread, where the user wanted to export the bone rig to another program.
If that's your intention , then you may be better to rig your model in the program where you want to animate and render it .
In the screen shot with the arm moved, some of the selected IK targets have disappered in the scene window, noticeably the finger targets. Since constraints are OFF, I'm not sure why they move offscreen. One way to check, I would move one IK Target at a time until the issue occurs. The Undo and Scale bugs I'm still researching.
The setup shown I agree should work fine, but a as suggestion, you can eliminate most of the IK targets and directly pose/manipulate parts(like fingers) by right-clicking near or on that general scene window area. A small menu of items for that area displays. Its much faster than searching the instance list or creating helpers.
If you stay with the setup, I would use different colors for the IK targets(Effects tab->Display Color: ) or use other objects as a target helpers. One reason is that some of Carraras manipulators can get in the way alot.
Hi :)
Here is a general overview of why I'm at the forum and my motivations.
I'm trying to clear up the grey area between program errors and user errors. I'm not perfect and from what I've found Carrara has
Real issues too. I respect very much the work and talent of those who created and maintain the software and I'm not here to bash
the hard work they all do.
I think it's important for people who use the program to report the issues or bugs they find so it can be determined if they are fixable.
The reason I feel this is important is so more people will use the software and then make development even better with the extra
revenue.
At times I have posted here when I was frustrated with a glitch and I hope my bad attitude didn't come across.
Carrara has great attributes like the animation blocks/blending and it's overall ease of use. I don't want that ease of use to be
effected by poor execution though. I'm trying to find the rules, and when they break in Carrara, as everyone who wants to use the
program should, and when you do something that doesn't break the rig your working on until you do something else to it like undo
for example. I think that's a bug. It's hard to know what the rules are when they don't follow any set logic (when it comes to bugs.)
Thank you for all your comments and help. Here are some of your questions and some answers too. Some repeated so I just
answered these, but let me know if something isn't clear. Thanks again.
"I think the complexity of the way you're working with, and learning how to use carrara, isn't helping you, or anyone trying to help,.
it's impossible to see what relationships the target helpers have with whatever bones,. or what constraints apply to those bones,. or the helpers,. just from the screen shots,. "
I read the manual and followed the rules set when creating the rig. The IK doesn't overlap anywhere. EX: The fingers IK starts at the
top finger bone and ends at the last. Not at the wrist. (Even though that would follow the rules too, as I understand them. As you
should be able to stop an IK at one bone and start a new IK chain at that bone.) I can upload the Rig if I report to the bug tracker?
I just made the bones with the IK chain tool and didn't play with the constraints.
"Have you tried animating in carrara without all the helper objects ?"
Yes, I've animated in Carrara using just bones, and another time just using constraints on a humanoid robot made of individual
parts before.
"Have you tried making a Minimal set of helpers, which work,. then adding more."
Yes, This is one of several rigs I've made. others wigged out on me when they got complex, so I was very, very careful
this time. With everything I added I made sure it didn't destroy, or bug something out as it was placed. ( I didn't move things around
on the instance tab until I wanted to organize though.)
"If you're having issues,. then you should create as simplistic a setup as you can,. bearing in mind that this is a learning process."
Yes, I've worked in other programs in the past but, its been a while and I'm always trying to learn more.
"Grouping:
"...I didn't mean to add more confusion. My bad."
I was taking your instructions too literally. I had to select all the controllers before I could put them into a group. I didn't know if there
was another way as the "Group" was greyed out from the "Edit" menu. Just wanted to make sure. I got it done.
IMPORTANT: When I put them in a group the arm stopped glitching out. I don't understand the rules this follows.
"What do you want to do with this rig ? "
I wanted to make a rig that uses controllers for animation, where the key frames are made for the controllers. I was going to use
animation blocks too. I like that you are suppose to be able to use only controllers for animations and shouldn't need to use bones at
all. If I ever export it I will remove the Controllers.
@tbwoq
Just saw your post. I didn't notice the finger targets disappeared. I'll check them. Thanks for the great tips. This will help. Here is a pic of the scale issue when you nest helpers.
HI :)
If you nest them like that, it's called parenting,. So, the left hand target in your pic, would be parented to the left shoulder helper, and follow it's motion,. which is causing the conflict.
Select all of the helpers for the Left hand, then go to Edit / Group,. that'll create a group,. inside your "IK Helpers" group. you can call that group Left hand helpers,. or whatever you want to make it easy to identify the contents of that group.
Select all the Right hand helpers and do the same. Edit / Group
You'll then have an IK Helpers (main group) with two (nested groups) called Left hand, and Right hand helpers.
then you can select the left foot / Right foot,. and do the same,.
you should then be down to legs, arms and spine/head. and it'#s up to you if you want to group any of those.
when you're done selecting and grouping all of the helpers,. you should have a main group , which has a set of different groups,,and each group contains your helper objects for each different section you want .
but as others suggested, you should try animating using the tools in carrara to rotate the bones,. without using IK helpers.
Hope it helps :)
I certainly wouldn't hurt to simplify the rig. I have no doubts Carrara can be set up with a complex rig, but it requires understanding of the rigging process first. Orville and Wilbur Wright didn't start out building 747s after all. The major feature I would like to see implemented is being able to save weight maps. Besides that, I haven't had any problems with the rigging tools.
Thanks 3D and evil.
Your tips will help a lot.
So, to be clear, you CAN'T nest the fingers helpers to the wrist helper, and then those to the shoulder helper? If you can then how? Also, I can't find anyone who has done a rig in Carrara that isn't simple. I'd like to see one. I know there is a way, in other programs to have so the helpers of the wrist and fingers would rotate when you rotate the shoulder helper, without messing them up.
If you don't nest them somehow, then they all stay behind and the arm doesn't rotate. Only the shoulder rotates. Anyone know of another way? I tried to put the fingers in a group and then nest them to the wrist, but it was the same as without the group.
Thanks
To parent(or link) the helpers, you may need to uncheck the parent(s), 'Propagate scaling' etc. This is most likely the reason why the targets are scaling when parenting in the instance list. The other option is what 3DAGE describes for setting up groups. Still researching the Undo bug.
The best example of figure rigging in Carrara should be Genesis. It is almost all native rigging(weight paint channels have more options in Genesis, not sure why yet).
Hi More2burn :)
When you create the main Animation group,. which consists of your Model, and it's bones,. that process creates your main "figure group" (model and bones)
your "IK Helper" group and all the IK helpers,. are controllers for that model,. their movements control the figures bones, like strings control a puppet.
If you want the IK Helpers as a whole group of items,. to follow the motion of the figure as it walks forward,. You can add the IK Helpers Group, into your main Animation group fo the figure,. (NOT parented to the figure or part of the figures bones) but as a Group within your figure's Animation group.
so you have a main Animation Group, which contains your Model,. it's bones, and an "IK Helpers" group,. which contains different groups for different helpers.
If you select the main figure's Animation Group, and move it,. all the bones and IK helpers will also move.
If Simple works, ...why make it more complex than necessary. !
:)