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That looks like a little firey animal :D
hahah.. I did not see that until you mentioned it. You're right.
That's some amazing stuff you are doing with fire! That orange haze around it in the photographs is due (I think) to the light catching dust and particulate that is naturally in the environment. I wonder what would happen if you added a very slight mist atmosphere to simulate that?
Makes me think of the intro to Bladerunner with the multiple fire explosions
Thanks, man, I appreciate it. Your comment makes me wonder. I've played around a bit with making a hazy smoky type atmosphere for scenes with fire, like in a small room, but I'm really just a novice at some of these things. I did stop each of these early, so that may be causing some of it. But you gave me an idea to try. I will look into it and post back with some results when I get them. And thank you for the comparison to such an iconic work. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Flaws and all, still an amazing work. By the way, I really like the saying in your signature. That's exactly how I feel.
I'm always so quick to try to find a solution in program that I almost never force myself into post work, and there you go... stunted growth.
- Actually, I really believe that you should accomplish as much in program as you can or are willing to put the time in to learn. Then go to postwork lol. I did not do any postwork for the first year I was learning Daz, because I knew if I did, I would get lazy and not learn at least the basics well, becuase I would just fix it in post. And I didn't want to do that. After the first year (I hit two years in Sept of last year) I started slowly adding postwork. Of course now, I don't have nearly as much time to try and learn how to do some things in program so I am grateful I took that year!
If anyone needs a decent tutorial about how to make flames in Photoshop, I found this helpful: https://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/tutorials/photoshop/use-render-flames-add-realistic-fire-in-photoshop-cc-2014/#1. Also, I've learned some things just by reading this guy's shader files: https://github.com/Astuceman/Daz-Iray-Shaders-and-Lights/blob/master/README.md. Please let me know if posting these are a problem. I'm using this as a repository to help document my process and learning. I tend to forget things otherwise. Here is a source for an awesome fire prop that's free, which I used with my own textures/shaders. I also found this tutorial by Sean Frangella on Youtube pretty helpful in getting me started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3CG-lzy0RA. Well, that's all for the moment. Be back soon, I hope.
Okay, here's my latest test render using a combination of techniques, props, and my own textures. No postwork yet though. Please disregard everything outside the ring of stones because this is just about the fire and firepit.
Nice experiments on the fire! Its rather tricky to get a good fire the crucial point is the temperature you give to fire. Its for a normal camp fire between 2800 k and 3300k the higher you go the more you get into the blue wavelangth which would be fitting for the fire of a smeltiing furnace. The other usefull dial is the opacity, you can go a bit down with that to avoid that light blob. the finishing touch comes with the bloom filter.
Thank you for the advice!!! I'm working on something right now. Will try to incorporate everything you've mentioned.
Okay, here's my latest experiment. Based on a lot of good feedback, I had to go back and revisit this scene that I've done for the new user's challenge in posing. So I played with fire, but didn't get burned. ;p Actually, I'm learning a lot, even if it doesn't seem like it. I need more feedback, so if you feel like you can help me, please chime in. I keep doing this thing where I'm trying to reproduce actual real-world lighting situations, BUT I know that isn't necessarily going to make something like art. So, in this image, I struggled to get fire that would light the scene without blowing out all white. But, I couldn't figure out how to do that and leave the scene dark the way it originally was, so... started tinkering with different environmental lighting and camera settings. The following image is a balance between too much light and not enough. BUT... it seems too dark and not as striking as the original. What do I do? Do I attempt to simulate moonlight? Do I add lights to highlight the figure from different angles even if I can't explain where those lights are coming from in the scene? Or do I get creative and try something different? One idea I had was to add some magic effects into the scene, but I don't want to spoil it. Help?! @Linwelly? @IceDragonArt? @Knittingmommy? @ Anyone?
Oh, this image isn't finished... it hit the 2 hour wall because I cannot get it down to fit in my VRAM - and believe me, I tried. I used both Iray Memory Assistant and Scene Optimizer. Comes out to around a little more than 7 gigs total. I know I can extend the stop points for Iray, but I forgot to do it and then it was going and I didn't want to lose what I'd already done. Also, I'm not crazy about the ground at this point, but it's something I struggle with anyway. I might, after all else is right, go in and mess with the ground, too.
Also, as you can probably tell, when I read your earlier advice, @Linwelly, I already had this rendering.
One thing I'll say, I'm always stunned by how much brighter the images look at full size on my monitor. Of course, that might be in part due to what's around the images. My backgrounds and themes are all dark, where the forums are all white. Hmmm....
Well, I don't think you will like my answer lol. I would fix the lighting in post work and hey, its your art if you want to add magic effects go for it. I did a very quick and dirty tutorial on using adjustment layers to dodge and burn a couple weeks ago which might also help with your lighting. You can always add a moonlight look by adding a blue layer on screen or soft light and then playing with the opacity and the mode.
@IceDragonArt - While waiting I was looking about for just that kind of thing - I know, I know. You're right. I've got to learn it. Dodge and burn, huh? Well, I guess it isn't fair of me to ask such open-ended questions. I mean, who's doing the image? Okay, breathe deep. Is this really as good as it gets in fire though, or am I missing something? I know you all told me how tricky it is, but I don't like to just accept that answer without at least banging my head against cold, hard reality for a bit first. I'm going to look for your tutorial. Time to grow.
Okay, let me look at it again now that I've had some time away for a bit. I needed to leave it, even if just for a few hours. I did already find this, Adding Fantasy Lighting.
@IceDragonArt - While waiting I was looking about for just that kind of thing - I know, I know. You're right. I've got to learn it. Dodge and burn, huh? Well, I guess it isn't fair of me to ask such open-ended questions. I mean, who's doing the image? Okay, breathe deep. Is this really as good as it gets in fire though, or am I missing something? I know you all told me how tricky it is, but I don't like to just accept that answer without at least banging my head against cold, hard reality for a bit first. I'm going to look for your tutorial. Time to grow.
Okay, let me look at it again now that I've had some time away for a bit. I needed to leave it, even if just for a few hours. I did already find this, Adding Fantasy Lighting.
@Linwelly - When you say opacity, do you mean the cutout opacity?
It's always weird to step into someone's thread and see my name. You're doing really well. I love seeing the progression of your work and watching it evolve. Very nice. :)
Thanks, @Knittingmommy, sorry to toss your name out there like that. Just looking for people I know are knowledgable and helpful. The @ thing is something I'm learning the etiquette for as I go. At first I did it because everyone else seemed to be doing it and I just thought it was a way to address people. Then it became a habit. It wasn't until within the last couple of days that I saw the little notification thingy and realized it was calling people if they were online. I guess I need to do better.
Oh, it's not a problem. I didn't mean to imply that! That's what the notification is for. It's just that it still feels weird to me personally. I'm still not accustomed to people knowing who I am. I just do my little things on the forum and help out when I can. It always just takes me by surprise. That's all. :)
@Knittingmommy - Oh, okay. You're moving up in the world is all. 8)
Here is the very short version of the dodge and burn
I also saw that you mentioned that you were having issues finding things in your library. You can create a custom category system that will take a bit of time to set up but will save a huge amount of time later. You can see how I do mine here. It starts about halfway down the page. There are a couple of examples from other people there as well. If you use the custom categories you only have to find your stuff once. If you start doing it early enough it won't take long to set up. And then you just put your new stuff in as you go. Made my life a lot easier as I prefer to use my time actually making something and not looking for it lol.
Lots of questions... hope I find each. So the easy ones first
yes that is the dial I mean. ideally whan you have a flame prop like that there is already a map sitting there if not you can look if one of the maps of the flame can be used, what you need is a black background everywhenre you don't want something to be seen. Often you can use the same you put into the emissive channel. Next thing you can check on the luminance units Units, In the image below I have a Luminance of 2000 kcd/m2. The temperature is even only at 2500.
(I hope its ok I spam you thread with my images LOL)
I assume that you want to achive a similar light situation for your render? one first tip though, don't put the campfire right behind your main character, place it more sideways.
The light settings beside the fires in this one is Sun sky only with dome on but the sun is a bit below the horizon, add some haze blue red tint to -0.71 and horizon blurr.
I hope that gives you an idea how to proceed
Okay, I've been working on this since my last appearance, in between dealing with everyday life and... yeah yeah, get on with it. I'm just now getting back to see all the wonderful help posted above. First things first -
Thank you to @IceDragonArt. I appreciate you sharing so generously. I am going to have a closer look at what you've given me to get started, over this weekend. And I seriously appreciate the helpful nudge on fixing my content. I really need to fix it, and maybe now I can at last. I actually had some ideas I wanted to try based upon you (and others) inspiring me to dig in and start playing with Photoshop. Now I've actually got some things under my belt, doing a few tutorials and looking more closely at your guidance might be more helpful because I won't be as lost on the basics. "As" would be the operative term there. heh...
@Linwelly - No, please, I don't mind at all. That image is amazing, and makes me really see how much farther I still have to go. But I'm not giving up. With all the really wonderful help I've been getting, I'm feeling very optimistic. I've actually tinkered a bit already with the bloom and other things.
Now, I feel silly sharing this since I haven't had a chance to read what you both have said until just now, but I feel like I've made some progress so I will. I'd like to know what others think of how it looks, just be gentle... lol... please.
I've got a lot going on this weekend, so I may not be able to do much more with this image until Sunday night or Monday. I'm getting nervous because the end of the month is coming and I still need to finish my other pose challenge image.
I think you have made great improvements, and I’m glad I stopped in. Lighting in Studio is my bane. I’ve learned a lot from your posts, and also your questions and the tips being offered. Just compare the white flat fire in your early works in progress to this most recent version.
Sorry i I don’t have something constructive to offer (did I mention Studio lighting is my bane?), but wanted to let you know your thread has a fan
OH, thank you so much, @Diomede. I'm trying, and it means a lot to me that it's noticed. You're very kind. Everyone is giving me such great ideas and I'm blending them all together. That's how I got the above image, which I plan to explain soon. Here's something I did with the other image from before, just playing around because @Knittingmommy mentioned something about NPR back when and inspired me. I'm betting someone will know what I've done here--I mean how I achieved these. The roots of these images are of course familiar from my new users challenge entry in posing. What is laid over them, however, is something new I've discovered how to do in postwork.
TLDR; Okay, so I'm getting back to it. I've got a lot on my to do list, but I want to revisit what I posted in seriousness before. This was made prior to @IceDragonArt and @Linwelly making such great comments. The end of the month is fast approaching, and this image is wearing on my brain, but I am not quite ready to just stop. Still, I may have to go with as is, and come back after when I'm fresh and tackle it again. So, anyway, I mentioned that I would share what I did, and I will.
Okay, I'm much happier with this than I was before. Still, there are problems with it. I'm just not sure how ready I am to tackle each of those problems at this time. I've got a lot to learn, as you can see. Still, I made real progress with this one, so I will share it. Especially since @Diomede encouraged me. I used to be a teacher. I find satisfaction in the idea that maybe my pain will make things easier for those who come after on this trail.
So, what did I do? How did I achieve this effect? (I'm not saying it's awesome, just improved) Documenting this here will help me in the future as well as those who may be curious. Just a little disclaimer, all of this is experimental. I have no training in this, and I'm just taking stabs in the dark combined with suggestions from others. Some of you will see the glaring errors of my way, while others may not. This is just what I did to achieve my result in Daz Studio with a little help from Photoshop postwork. If someone can suggest a specific idea about how I might make it better as I think maybe the colors suffered a little from my technique, I'm all eyes and ears.
I was playing around in Photoshop, and I realized that all of these experimental shots trying to get it right were taken from the exact same camera point of view. I thought, What if I were to put a couple of them in separate layers and adjust the opacity? What would it look like? I discovered the apply image command, and wow, it suddenly gave me an idea. What if I could have the lighting from the original version of this combined with the not-so-washed out colored fire of my recent experiments? And that's just what I set out to achieve, in four separate passes.
The first image was set up to use as the base. I used the flame props that I achieved during my experiments combined with the almost foggy day atmosphere lighting to lay down base work. I did not really play with opacity on the flames in this image because I knew that whatever the other images brought to the scene, it would offset whatever I did in this first layer. The lighting would combine. The lack opacity in one image would work as counter to the solidity in this layer. I had to think in terms of total effect at each stage of the image.
The second image I set up to capture the lighting from my first version of this image, but without the whited out shaders of same. To do that, I had to discover this thread: Hiding Iray Lights. Work your way down until you find the settings on opacity. Go experiment. You can do this same effect if the lighting isn't what you want. So, again, this image, with minor alterations mostly (except background) is my original version of the scene, but with the fire props hidden, primitives inserted to shape and size needed, emmissive shaders applied, and opacity set down so very low as to render the light sources invisible in Iray. Did not know this was possible until this new user challenge. Thank you guys.
The third image I set up to add moonlight to the scene. I wanted it bright enough to be noticable, but not to wash out colors. Took a lot of experimentation. In the end, I made a primitive sphere, made it huge, placed it high up in the sky at the desired location, applied emmissive shader (Real Lights for Iray - neon blue), and set the luminance to 50,000,000. That's right. 50 mill. The bright lights from the second render pass are still present. Apart from the moon, the only other thing I changed was to turn draw dome off--I thought it might make the final render strange and I was unsure if my lighting would even interact with the dome image I was using. Then I set went into the tone map settings and set the shutter speed appropriately. The default value is 128. The higher the number, the less light gets into the final image, the faster the render time on CPU only goes (in my experience). I'm embarassed to admit I didn't record this number. It might be saved in the scene files, but more likely it is not because my process is scatterbrained, as so much of my world is. I remember that 2400 was not high enough to prevent wash out. I think I might have set it at 3000 or 3200. This gave me solid highlighting for moonlight, which I knew would be offset in the final compilation of my render passes. There is a great amount of room in this stage for experimentation and variety. I wanted something a little more magical, so I dropped out too much realism in this moment. I did, however, want the shadows, ambient light, and highlights of this magical, fantasy moonlight in the scene, so not too much realism was dropped. Just too too much. You get the point.
Fourth image pass set up to confirm the elements of the initial base layer, but with the enhance qualities of light I wanted to achieve over the top of the other layers. Now, in retrospect, I wish I'd made the bloom settings stronger to force more of it to carry into the final image. Lighting is almost the same as in the base layer with a bloom effect added in. There is some tinkering with opacity I did do, but not much because I knew that the two passes without flames for the fire props would enhance the transparent nature of the flames (maybe too much, not sure). I achieved this bloom effect, thanks to @Linwelly (suggestion) and @barbult (settings), by discovering this thread here: Show Off Iray... Go down until you see barbult's settings. Again, I should have made mine stronger for overlay purposes, but I didn't know and I was just about done with it by the time I got there. I've been with this image a long time now.
Finally, I took the images into Photoshop. Now, @IceDragonArt and @Wonderland deserve some credit here. I discovered all of this through play (take that No Child Left Behind). It is precisely because of their use of postwork and their suggestions that I began playing around in Photoshop at all. Selecting the base layer (image 1), I made sure each of the other images were open in the workspace at the same time. Add a layer for each stage of this process. Go up to Image>Apply Image, then just choose the next layer to add and set the opacity appropriately. There is some room for experimentation here. I believe I went 50% on second layer. Third layer is very strong and will ruin the scene if it is too high, so I set the opacity, I believe to somewhere between 5 and 10%. Fourth layer is tricky because if you aren't careful you will lose so much of what you've worked for in quality of light. For the first 3 images, I found Multiply worked for blending style. For this one, however, multiply would toss out all the stuff I wanted so badly. I scrolled through the possibilities with my mouse wheel and found one that allowed me to make the image I wanted. There are many options in this part of the plan, so choose according to your tastes and goals. In the end, I went back and recombined the image with itself using the apply image technique again and achieved the following two images:
Using this technique, the qualities of light and color to be expressed appear virtually endless. I'm glad I went there, so again, thank you to all who made comments and suggestions and gave feedback. Now, I still have to learn some of these techniques better and whatnot, but I'm happy to share. I hope someone else gains from this. PS: The background used --the trees and dome -- come from Forgotten Fane by bitwelder. Play with the environment intensity to get the level of lighting from the background that you desire. Also, you might need to play with ISO in tone map settings somewhat. I had to, but I don't remember each setting for these images. I think they were all either 100 or 200 or thereabouts.
I'd be thrilled to have any feedback at all. Even honest (kind) critiscisms. I'm tryinig to grow.
Wow the final image looks great! So glad I could help! DeathbyCannon has a video about multi pass rendering on her thread, when I get a chance I will track it down for you. I think its on one of the last couple of pages of her thread.
You're putting a lot into this picture, and it's looking really good!
@IceDragonArt - I'm plan on getting into the dodge and burn stuff and all that after I finish my Ultraman render. You've been so helpful already. Thank you again.
@Noswen - Thank you for the kind remarks. I appreciate it.
Here is the link for the canvasses video by DeathByCanon.