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B-} I only have an inkjet printer, mostly for an occasional photo. The ink costs a fortune, so I don't print manuals. The C8 Pro PDF version, which can be called up in the program, works fine for me. Except its for an older version - did I mention that? B-}
I'm also happy to have discovered Carrara, having used Bryce, Poser and even Lightwave. My epiphany occurred when I learned that Carrara can load Poser content directly from its browser, with all the dials, no "import' required. That was a brilliant move on somebody's part, DAZ or Eovia or whoever. Carrara is vastly superior to Poser for large scenes and animations, IMHO, but Poser style content (e.g. Gen4 characters) is much more prevalent, and is affordable. So the combination is as good as I can imagine (I am not a modeler).
You probably know that Daz as well as Dart and Dimension theory have sponsored the last two challenges very generously so they are in that way showing good support for Carrara users.
No, I haven't kept up with the challenges. Is there an animation component? That is my real interest, still renders being mostly test shots preparing for an animation.
I stated recently that I would recommend Carrara for anyone intrested in its features and content handling. However, this is up to a point, as I also stated in an older topic that Carrara 8.5's final release will make or break my decision to continue to upgrade. The manual was one of the main things on my mind at the time(along with Bullet being finalised etc.).
Without a solid promise of a manual, or at least an update soon after C8.5, then I can't in good conscience recommend it any longer. Its been to much time now. Im sure DAZ is fully aware that not having the manual this far into Carrara could turn away many hobbiest(the users I beleive DAZ is focused on).
Steve K wrote
Hi, the winner gets to pick the next topic. So maybe next time. I have in mind something to do with blowing things up, lots of them, lots of bangs, :) Dartanbeck and Wendy are in the same ilk as far as animation. I just do renders cause life is short and I I'm trying to do it for a living - whereas I would never be able to do animation for a living - just needs too many people to do it commercially :)
tbwoq
last year I had a chap come into our studio on open day, he saw some of my r enders lieing around the painting studio and just spent ages looking at them. I put him onto carrara. I saw him the other day and asked him how he was going. "Not good" he said, he couldn't come to terms with all the soft porn (his words) on the Daz site so he bought something called cheetah....
each to their own I guess - I happen to like girls in 'bikini's"
Hi head wax.
No doubt, DAZ is a great site for fantasy type renders of all kinds. Rendering people appears to be the best selling, at which Studio is probably king atm. The manual subject may be a sore point for many, but it seems that the sites skimpy outfit content subject comes up far more often. Anyway, the community is what has kept me here for so long.
Yes, I feel the same way. When people ask about my videos and what software I use, I've always given Carrara high marks. While I still enjoy working in it and probably always will, I cannot in good conscience recommend it to people anymore. The lack of support from DAZ borders on the unethical, given their continued marketing technique. And it results in users not recommending Carrara to others. So I still think the lack of the promised manual is on topic for the "Why Isn't Carrara Selling" thread, but as you may have noticed, that is not the general consensus. Actually, the point may be that I should have been talking not about just the manual, but the overall lack of support. Terrapin posted a comment like that yesterday in the "Why Isn't Carrara Selling" topic, reading in part:
"The perception is that Daz is halfheartedly and disgustedly pushing the unappetizing, greasy, cold remains of Carrara around the plate, making it look more and more inedible with each passing nudge"
We'll see if that is deemed "on topic" over there.
It does make me realize that this topic is misnamed (not chosen by me, but by the mod who frog marched me out of the "Not Selling" topic). We are not really talking about the Carrara manual (content, format, etc.), but its non-existence. So I thought a better name would be "Why Isn't Carrara Selling? Its The Manual, Stupid!" But that is too specific, and my wife said it sounds spiteful, and that has no place here in the Forums, right?. So maybe "The Lack Of A Manual" here in the Carrara forum. Or "The Lack Of DAZ Support For Carrara". Something like that.
Can I change the title of this topic?
Head Wax can change it if he wishes by editing the first post.
Thanks for the prompt response. I am a little confused, the first post is by Evil Producer, and I now see he is shown as the "author" of this topic in the list of Carrara Discussion Threads. I think that was simply due to being the "cut point" where the messages got transferred from the "Why Is Carrara Not Selling" thread. I doubt that Evil Producer is interested in being involved with this thread.
If I'm missing the point, I'll talk to Head Wax.
Just to clarify, are you referring specifically to printed manuals? I think electronic/PDF manuals are acceptable, Online manuals are not quite as good (unless they are downloadable for offline reference), but better than nothing since most of us now have high speed Internet. To me, a program as complex as Carrara needs a comprehensive manual to let the user understand the details of the features, or even to know what features are available. Other high end programs I use include Adobe Photoshop CS and Ableton Live (a music composition program), and they both provided detailed printed manuals. "Particle Illusion" (a video effects program) provides a detailed electronic reference. Certainly some simple apps can be understood with just the "Help" screens/popups, but I do reference the manuals I've mentioned fairly often.
And of course, DAZ promised the manual at purchase time, and still does.
ANY manual, even PDF. My CS5 has access to a full range of online help, but a sit down and read manual? Not really. I can get help with any tool, and there are tons of sample files, but not one of the programs came with anything resembling a manual. I literally can't think of anything for years that's come with anything more than a, "This is how you set up the program" booklet. I'm sitting here in front a bookcase full of old manuals that I haven't touched in years, or added to in years. It rather astonished me to realize it; I'm a heavily visual person, and I'm hardly young at age 57, but I am firmly electronic now, and I'm much more likely to just get in there and do things and look up tools than read a manual. It's a completely different approach than I started with, but even with Finale and Logic I'm just gonna do things. I'm a believer in happy accidents, to begin with, but it's just too easy to look things up these days if I've truly got a question.
I also have Photoshop CS5, but its not on the machine I'm using now. I am not the best test of the documentation, since I've used PS since V.3 (1994 - still have the 3.5" floppies!). So its pretty close to second nature. I don't recall even using the CS5 Help, so I checked the reviews at Amazon (overall 4 stars out of five). I did not see much discussion of the Help, but I did find this:
"Finally, it must be pointed out the the Help function is entirely on line. This can lead to slow responses to inquiries at best and I have had several occasions when the Adobe servers just did not respond and I got a dead window in my browser. So forget Help if you are off-line. On the other hand, the Help is very good if you can access it."
So its a mixed verdict. But at least its there, i.e. Adobe is not promising it "real soon now!"
The "online only" is not my first choice, but as you point out, we are all becoming "firmly electronic". I recently bought my first tablet, a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, very nice and with WiFi that lets me use the Chrome browser I like (syncs with all my four computers for one thing). I'm pretty sure I could sit at the Community Pool (Wifi enabled) and browse the Adobe Help system, although I haven't yet tried it.
My conclusion is still that complex software must be documented, or if not, the price reduced by the amount needed to buy "The Missing Manual". B-} I have these for all the versions of Windows I am running - 2000Pro, XP, Vista, and W7. This will not work for Carrara, since it has dwindled so far that a book cannot be justified. PhilW's C8 Video Tutorials are the best thing available (I have a couple), but not really a manual.
Thanks for the response, and BTW the "happy accident" is what we all hope for in the 48 Hour Video contest, live action or animation. E.g. I recall a moderately good video in which a bit player gave a brilliant delivery of his one line, causing a lot of us (mostly film makers, casts and crews) to roll out of our seats laughing. The video is now in their "Greatest Hits" compilation. I recall Hollywood directors talking about hoping for things like that, since they can't plan them. An example is Indiana Jones when Harrison Ford had diarrhea, so the director had to shorten his time on camera. Instead of getting into the planned whip fight with the native expert, Jones (Ford) just pulled out a pistol and shot him. Cut and print, and its Miller time.
Sorry, my mistake, evilproducer can change it, or we can try to get a consensus
fixmypcmike. I would rearrange this topic again at the second(#2) post by Steve K. as author, and maybe an extended title. The first to mention the manual being outdated in the other topic was Ooseven(afaik, can't detect edits on the new forum setup), but Steve K. brought it up again in discussion with DAZ_Spooky.
----
The manual is an important topic for those interested in learning Carrara and needs continued discussion. The, "Why isn't Carrara selling?" topic, I believe the concern there was, promotion of Carrara is clearly limited when it should NOT be. But if new visitors knew how outdated the manual is, I can almost guarantee most would think twice before buying it.
In my opinion, there are no excuses for not having an up to date manual by now. The older manual(s) do cover alot, but there are basic errors and direct misinformation that has stopped my workflow on many occasions. I suggested before, why not just add to or update the existing C6 manual. That way the format and images(etc.) doesn't have to be totally redone.
It's not like it needs a complete rewrite. Just an update. And I have read more then one post by some one saying they weren't buying/updating carrara because of the lacking of an up to date manual.
I'm not worried about it. The belief that programs need an manual is rather out dated.Most have an online resource, a wiki of sorts. There is also the wealth of info online that wasn't available when programs needed and why they needed a manual.
I printed out the C6 manual, yes a hard copy. i read it cover to cover a few times, thing is a lot of it I didn't understand. 3DAGE has explained carrara to me in ways I understand. So in essence I have learned far more about carrara from my fellow carraraests on this forum, then I ever did reading the manual.
I figured out a lot of C5 without reading the manual, any questions I had were answered on the old Carrara forum; pre DAZ. So forums have proven far more helpful to me then any manual could ever have been.
Stan something has gone very wrong here, You have just made a post that I agree with. I have several real Bryce manuals, you know the big thick paper ones with cardboard covers, and I don't think they have been opened. I learned to use Bryce 2 from magazine articles (prior to getting the internet) and everything else I have learned has been from the forums I frequent, not from manuals.
As I mentioned, I don't think Evil Producer is interested in this thread, he is shown as author only due to the "cut point" of the transferred messages. I agree with tbwoq's suggestion, and propose the title "Lack Of An Up To Date Carrara Manual". If you think its necessary, we can let this ride for a while to see if there are any objections. Thanks again.
Stan something has gone very wrong here, You have just made a post that I agree with. I have several real Bryce manuals, you know the big thick paper ones with cardboard covers, and I don't think they have been opened. I learned to use Bryce 2 from magazine articles (prior to getting the internet) and everything else I have learned has been from the forums I frequent, not from manuals.
You agreed with Stan? You really need to sit down and have a drink. The end of the world is nigh!
What's really weird is that I agree with you both. Armageddon! I can hear the bowels of Hell opening beneath me right now.
As I mentioned, I don't think Evil Producer is interested in this thread, he is shown as author only due to the "cut point" of the transferred messages. I agree with tbwoq's suggestion, and propose the title "Lack Of An Up To Date Carrara Manual". If you think its necessary, we can let this ride for a while to see if there are any objections. Thanks again.
OK, I just read Administrator chohole's (BTW a very helpful person in my experience) post about "manuals". There MAY be some confusion about the word "manual" (I have learned to be careful about words around here, we are guilty until ... never mind). I am not insisting on a printed manual, or even any "manual" at all. (I should stop here, right?).
What I am insisting on is up-to-date DOCUMENTATION. (That's not a shout, just emphasis). It can come in a lot of forms. See my post above on Photoshop CS5 and its online Help system. If anybody does it right, its Adobe, with users on other planets. Programmers can create wonderful new features, but how are we lowly users expected to understand them. Adobe explains them, in detail. DAZ needs to, also, for Carrara.
So I change my suggestion for this thread to "Lack Of Up To Date Carrara Documentation". Again, we can let this ride for a while.
But it has to be comprehensive, meaning covering all the features in detail in a searchable format, written with programmer input. A bunch of piecemeal tutorials by various people is not "documentation". Helpful, maybe, but we need the real docs from the real programmers.
I have to admit that I find myself telling this to a high end software publisher is ... let me think of a word ... I'll be back ...
Well, I didn't know I was listed as the thread author. If the name of thread needs changing, then I'm game. What should it be?
I'm not particularly interested in this thread as I feel it's beating a dead horse. That being said, let me add a couple last wollops to the old nag:
The manual was updated for Carrara 7. It is currently one version behind. DAZ's biggest mistake was not including the C7 manual with C7, but rather as a separate download. It should also be included in the C8 download.
Steve, I respect you as an artist, and also your knowledge of Carrara, and the help you give people here. I should also apologize for going off on you for going off on Spooky.
That being said, I don't care if you don't "buy" that DAZ let it be known that they had hired someone to update the C7 manual and that the writer they hired didn't deliver. The thread was posted when C8 first was released. It may have even been stickied for awhile. I suspect that the reason we don't have an updated manual is that:
1) DAZ got screwed and was a bit gun shy, and...
2) the economy tanked and they decided to spend the money elsewhere, rather than risk getting screwed again.
Like everything else in this thread relating to DAZ, these are unfounded speculations- Kind of like assuming DAZ doesn't care about it's customers or Carrara.
I believe that, many years ago in the US, many or most gas stations used to provide attendants who would come out, fill your tank, clean your windows, check your oil, etc....they were a "full service" gas station. How often do you see that nowadays? Well, personally I can't recall seeing that anywhere, ever. But that's what they did way back when.
Why? Well, I suppose it was a "nice to have" service that people really liked, but the gas stations realized that while the customers might like it, it didn't really produce much revenue. So they dropped it. Because the service station is a business, whose goal is to make money. In this case, it not only didn't produce much revenue, it cost them money to hire attendants. So if you're spending $10 in order to make $2, at some point you start to think "hmmm, maybe this isn't a very good idea".
Now I'm sure some here will start a side issue discussing how imperfect my analogy is and miss the point completely, but I think the whole issue of manuals is a bit like service station attendants. It costs a software company $$$ to hire someone to write a manual, and it takes a lot of time. But does it result in an increase in revenues? Probably not.
Now personally, I also can't recall ever being influenced in my decision to buy any software based on whether it has an up to date manual. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone here ever has. So if the manual costs money, but doesn't make people buy the software, then understandably it's not high on the priority list. Does that mean that DAZ or any other software company hates its customers? Not at all. It's not about like and hate, or anything emotional like that. It's a business. Now I know many people here like to twist things into emotional terms, but this has nothing to do with that. It's a money issue, pure and simple.
Which is partly why software companies like DAZ don't generally (if ever) advertise the software manual. In fact I don't think DAZ has ever promised or advertised an up to date software manual. Or ANY manual for that matter. So if they never said you'd get one, why do people expect one?
Sure, it's an industry standard practice to provide some form of documentation with software. But as we all know that can mean many, many different things. And it's also clear from the the unending manual discussions here that there are VASTLY different expectations about what software documentation people expect. Some want absolutely, totally comprehensive documentation that explains everything there is to know about computer visual effects all in one easy to read and search PDF file. Others want only instructional videos because they don't like to have to read stuff. Others want something that discusses basic functionality. And on and on and on and on.......
So I guess the bottom line is, while you're free to EXPECT whatever you want, DAZ never promised anything. That's a fact. And based on the history of Carrara and manuals, it doesn't (at least IMO) make a lot of sense to continually expect something that has never existed, and probably will never exist.
Now, as I've said many times before, there are other ways to learn this stuff such that you don't really need a comprehensive documentation. Because, as I've also said many times before, most, if not all, of the Carrara features are fairly standard features found in most 3D software on the planet. So if you learn the basic concepts associated with those features, then you're well equipped to use not only Carrara, but just about any other 3D software out there.
So if you first read a general 3D book and, for example, learn what UV mapping is and how most software implements it, then you'll start up Carrara and already understand what features to expect, and the the only remaining challenge is where to find them in the array of buttons and menus. Same thing applies to modelling. Or animation. Or texturing. And so on....
And what's even better about that approach is that you will learn about the basic concepts of what and why the software is doing, as opposed to just learning what the buttons do without understanding why.
And, by the way, to distill all of this down into very simple terms, let's say it would take a technical writer 1 year to rewrite the Carrara manual. (As I recall, someone from DAZ said that DAZ feels that the manual needs a complete rewrite). So let's say it costs DAZ about $100k to hire a writer to rewrite the manual.
Now, how many copies of Carrara would they have to sell just to get the revenue to pay that person?
Well, I recall right now it's selling for something around $200. So divide $100k by 200, and you realize they'd need to sell 500 copies of Carrara JUST to cover the cost of a manual. Now if you were running DAZ, how high would a manual be on your priority list? :)
Now I'm sure my numbers are off, but at least it gives you a reasonable idea of what any software company is faced with when it comes to manuals. Especially when they know that their users have 2.6 million different expectations on what the documentation "should" be, and nobody will be happy no matter what you provide...
Indeed the "Manual" issue is always a discussion here.
Should there be a complete and up to date manual ? Sure.
Will there be ? Most likely no. Do you really need one? No. The version 7 one is about 90-95 % still up to date.
DAZ barely can update Carrara itself. Its a fools dream to think a rewritten manual is in the cards. Its' not right I know but its just the facts of life here.
Carrara unfortunately or maybe fortunately is resting with a content developer. I often wondered if Carrara went over to Smith Micro instead of DAZ would it be in better shape today? or even Corel ? --Daz spends so much energy trying to make Daz stuff work in Carrara they can do very little else. Well and they barely can do that)
It seems to me if DAZ would just make sure their models could be exported in one of the standard industry exporter file formats --- fbx, collada, allembic etc and make sure Carrara could read them ----it would be a lot better then what goes on now.. and would they not sell to other 3d software in much greater amounts as well. This way they could work on real improvements to Carrara and heck even have time to work on a manual -- Smiles.
It came from DAZ employees about the tech writers (more than one) who had let them down. It's been posted in a couple threads and the person who worked on documentation for a time talked about it I think in the Commons as it's been an issue with DAZ Studio as well. I even think Dan Farr (one of the DAZ founders) talked about it once, if not here, over at Rendo. I frankly have learned more from the videos DAZ and others have made than I did from even trying to read the manuals that have existed for both Carrara and DAZ Studio over the years. (There's a new DAZ video on lighting that makes DAZ Studio look as easy as Carrara!) They had started the Wiki, though I think its progress has slowed quite a bit, but that was regurgitating the previous stuff that still applied from the manuals with updates from the programmers when they had a free moment.
What I've found as the best solution is to use Google site search for the info I need. It hasn't let me down yet and is even faster than bugging 3dage (Andy). Chance are , you'll find something he's written helping others, too!
I prefer the suggestion that the author of this topic be replaced, since Evil Producer only became the author due to being the writer of the first post relocated from the "Why Isn't Carrara Selling" topic. I.e., I believe he never intended to be the author. Since I am the cause for the relocated posts, it makes sense for me to be the author of this topic. Administrator fixmypcmike has agreed above that we can get a consensus on the author, and tbwoq has agreed that I should be the author. So if nobody objects for a while, I'll ask fixmypcmike to make the change.
I have also suggested that we adopt a more descriptive title, since we are not talking about the "Manual" per se (content, format, etc.) I have suggested "The Lack Of Current Documentation" for this topic in the Carrara discussion.
On all the other inputs in the last several messages, all of which are welcome here, I have stated repeatedly my opinions. I see no need to repeat them.
Then perhaps you can explain why you and others insist upon, and expect, something that was never promised, has never existed, and probably will never exist. I've never quite understood that. Especially when the lack of it makes some folks so upset. Why not just accept the realities and choose a different method to get what you want, especially if other methods might ultimately be more useful?
steve k wroteth
sure you have my blessing to be author of said thread ;)
I have explained that but maybe you missed it. When I purchased the Carrara 8 upgrade in 2010, no update of the manual was provided, but we were told it would be "provided shortly". It still says that on the documentation page here:
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/carrara/start
And of course DAZ is still offering Carrara 8 for sale.
As Head Wax stated, DAZ does owe us a manual update, commercially and morally. He has also stated that many people who have contended that have gotten stonewalled and have stopped posting here. I can understand that now.
But suppose I accept the opinion of many that it ain't gonna happen, even at the end of the summer with the 8.5 production release. (Moderator Spooky would not confirm that, making a reference to the V.2 manual which I don't understand). If it is really the case that DAZ will never provide a C8 documentation upgrade, I suggest that as a responsible company, they do the following:
- Put a large notice on the Carrara 8 sales page, stating that the software is offered without up-to-date documentation. Clarify that the most recent complete documentation is for V.6 (or V.7 which I'm not clear on the status of it being "complete"). Provide a list of alternate sources of information in lieu of current documentation.
- Provide the same notice on the Documentation page above, deleting the current "To Be Provided Shortly" status.
- Contact all previous purchasers of C8 and explain why the promised update will not be forthcoming. If DAZ feels its appropriate, offer some compensation, possibly in the form of store credit.
This seems like the proper approach for a respectable company.
While I don't agree with many posters here, I do respect their opinions. But this debate at the Forum level is not productive, I agree. I think DAZ (a company official) should clarify the issue for once and for all. I am not interested in debating it further in these Forums, we all have stated our positions. The ball is in DAZ' court. IMHO.
Thanks. I think. It just occurred to me that, like Evil Producer, I did not expect to be the author of this topic, either.
:-S
More seriously, as I mentioned above, I think this debate has run its course with both "sides" being well explained. I believe a DAZ official should clarify the issue once and for all.
Steve K wrote:
They just need to change it to "Daz soon" - an expression which is a running joke here, even I think amongst the mods, and maybe amongst Daz people themselves.
:)
Okay, well I guess that settles it....
Personally, I'm gonna go to the gas station and sit in my car with my arms crossed and a scowl on my face until an attendant in a crisp white uniform and a cap runs out to my car and fills it with gas, cleans the windows, and checks the oil level and tire pressures. :)
And I suppose after that I'll go home and do it myself..... :)
They just need to change it to "Daz soon" - an expression which is a running joke here, even I think amongst the mods, and maybe amongst Daz people themselves.
:)
I had not heard that phrase, but it does sound appropriate.
:coolsmile: