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No, you're not the only one. ;-)
Definitely not the only ones.
The more that Daz spends money on developing Carrara, the more likely that Carrara users will spend money on content.
Cart goes behind the horse, not before.
I should point out that I, unlike diomede64, am Not sorry for taking up so much of everyone's time.
...rings true to my experience. I can't speak for the Windows side, but if you dig enough I'm pretty sure you'll find evidence to raise concerns similar to those I'm about to.
Developers for Apple hardware use an identifier code so folks can tell where an app or app by-product comes from. It's usually in the form of a reversed domain name, like com.apple.somethingorother. And because of its Unix-like base, Mac saves things like crash reports.
On the crash reports for the current version of Carrara, I see the identifier com.eovia.carrara.macho.8.5.0.243. For some perverse reason they're still using Eovia's identifier.
Dig a little more in the crash report, and you'll see references to com.apple.CoreServices.CarbonCore framework. Not sure what that is? Don't worry. It's described on Apple's Developer site. On second thought, worry:
"Deprecated" is an official fancy-schmancy way of saying "this unit's going bye-bye in a future release." By the way, this note is from July of 2012, to do with that whole new OS 10.8 thing we've had for the past year plus, the one that Daz only recently got Carrara to play nice with (for certain lackluster values of "nice"). The release of 10.9 is (I estimate) less than two weeks away, and something tells me that Carrara isn't really up for that upgrade.
So near as I can tell, Carrara is being developed from the original Eovia project files, using a lot of the original Eovia frameworks. I think only a full rewrite could save it now, and one developer is not going to muck out that stable all by himself.
I am with you on this one.
For a very long time I have wanted this to be the case. Carrara was to be their premier application all development efforts should go to it.
Yes add all of Hexagon modeling tools and put all the DAZ Studio tools and Bryce and you have one killer application.
These kinds of threads are always so much fun.
Indeed ----Daz studio was created as a lifeboat for DAZ as it never knew what POSER was going to do. So they went out to make a easy content app of their own so they could protect their content sales.
. Along came Carrara and DAZ3d scoops it up ----yet continued and continues to develop Daz studio over Carrara. Its not their star product but should have been and should be. Once they bought Carrara they should have worked on a starter version of Carrara ala a daz studio like app and continued robust development of the pro version. Focus your devs on one application not wasting all this time trying to get one to talk to the other etc. If you only had one core application ----you waste little of your scarce development resources.
But----that's not what happened. And I for one do not really get upset over all this as long as they keep developing Carrara. There may be limitations to DAZ we do not know ---or maybe the code of Carrara is wickedly undocumented and unruly ? who knows.
What I do know --development cost money and DAZ makes their money on content. I would like to see in the store when we buy content a checkbox that says we are buying this for use in Carrara--- so DAZ might see Carrara folks do spend money on content too. If we knew somehow that our content sales would mean money directed to development in Carrara in a direct way --I think you would see sales take off even more !!
Rich
Definitely not the only ones.
Add me to the list. I did try DS ... frustrating is an understatement.
Frustrating is an understatement learning any new program. It took me three times at Bryce before I was willing to give it a real chance.
I am a musician by trade. Can you imagine the frustration a violinist would have if any new model violin came with a totally new interface? How about a 1000 page manual explaining how to play your new contraption after spending years learning the old one? How come when I play where the high notes used to be they are low? What do you mean it doesn't have strings? People (customers) like what they are used to.
I've always used a PC, never been able to afford a MAC. Windows has a certain way of doing things that I have gotten used to. I can smell a program ported over from a MAC a mile away (Bryce being one of them.) Things aren't where I'm used to finding them. After time (and a bunch of complaining and moaning and groaning) I get over it and learn the program (or give up and find something else.)
Bryce and Carrara do more than DS does in many areas. Maybe originally the plan was to take the technology in Carrara and Bryce and move it into DS. It hasn't worked out that way and I don't think it ever will. But there is no doubt that DS is the star of the show and will get the lions share of time and attention from DAZ. I can't fault them on that. I just hope that DAZ remains successful and dribbles a portion of that success into updating Bryce.
Definitely not the only ones.
Add me to the list. I did try DS ... frustrating is an understatement.
It's probably easily apparent from my prior postings, but I'm on that list as well. Studio is horrible (IMO) and I'm allergic to working with it :)
Daz Studio is a bundle of mess. The interface and workflow is not something you would expect from a professional software tool. Its convoluted and scattered in its approach rather than being unified and typical of any 3D software. Carrara is a true professional software which I believe is easier to learn than Studio as its structured like how we expect a 3D application to be. Of course a downloadable user manual would help everyone get up-to speed. I can't understand why Daz has so many different software applications in its portfolio when it doesn't have the resources to develop them all. FOCUS should be its priority and "Carrara" should be the focus.
Well, it could very well be that the game plan from DAZ's view is to dribble a bit of development here and there for Carrara and Bryce and even Hex, and pour 90% or more of the development into Studio. I'm just having trouble coming up with a good business reason for *why* they would do that.
It may be (as some have speculated) that DAZ has decided that the 'foot traffic' they attract for casual and new free users of Studio is enough in terms of content sales that the cost of continuing to develop Studio is just sort of viewed as the ongoing cost of doing business. I think that view would be flawed, because these are free app users, and not that that makes them bad people or anything, but Studio already does all that it needs to do to keep those users in place and buying content. And they'll even buy plugins (look at my hair, the terrain generator plugin, reality, etc, etc) through the DAZ store to make their Studio experience even better and more fully featured. I think the ones that use Studio but are bumping up against its limitations and are willing to pay are either going to pay money for a different (hopefully similar enough to understand) software (which is where DAZ should naturally be pointing the way towards Carrara), but some (many) will always stick with the free program they first learned in and which is, again, free to use. I don't think Studio needs to do much more than it already does to retain the customer base that uses it and content within it, and I also don't believe that users of other softwares who like DAZ content are suddenly going to stop content shopping just because there isn't a Studio 5, because why would they care?
I'm not a programmer or from that background and I have no idea what coding problems they might be running into in regards to Carrara's code, but surely there are technical people they either have on staff or could hire who could figure it out. They've been able to develop it from 6 to 7 to 8 to 8.5, so somebody somewhere must know how to code for Carrara, right?
Also there is the puzzle that is Carrara 9. If the end goal was to make Carrara friendly for the new tech content (Genesis) well, then now that 8.5 is out and (mostly) does the trick, why wouldn't they just stop? But instead, DAZ has actually revealed they are planning on having Carrara 9 ready sometime first quarter of next year.
While I'm happy to hear that, it puzzles me because the development of 8.5 took so glacially long, that suddenly having Carrara 9 just around the corner seems awfully quick. Is this some indication that maybe DAZ has shifted gears and re-tasked the bulk of it's development muscle into Carrara, at least for the immediate future? They can't possibly be thinking they could release a Carrara 9 with nothing substantively new in it, yet that seems a short time frame to put things together and iron out the kinks and bugs and have it ready to go. Maybe during the very slow development period to 8.5 more was going on behind the scenes than we know, and most of what is planned to be part of 9 is already near-completion, and they were just holding it back from the 8.5 release? That seems unlikely to me too... It is a puzzlement.
But while there may be tons of history that argues for the viewpoint that Studio will continue to roll onwards and get the most development muscle, the relatively quick target date for Carrara 9 actually is a data point that would seem to contradict that theory.
Or it is possible that there really isn't any gameplan at all, and things are just rolling along chaotically :)
100% agree. And the manual issue has puzzled me for a while too. They've already got the Carrara 7 manual, how hard can it be to simply compile a list of the feature additions of 8 and 8.5 and simply include a paragraph or two explanation of each one along with a screenshot or two and maybe a render example in some cases, and simply add it to the text? Seems like one of the secretaries in the office could knock this out in a week, and silence what has become an often-voiced criticism.
All I can say on the matter is... wait... that's not true at all... I could literally type for the rest of my life on the subject. Anyways...
If DAZ did decide to go with only one solution, I would hope that it would be Carrara. I like Carrara very much for what it is. However, DS is their baby! They're rightfully proud of that studio. Before we consider even going there with this, try and count the number of veteran users of DS. Sure it's a freaky place for us, but I've talked to many people who have bought Carrara but use DS because it's easier for them. Yeah... really!
This sort of reaction shocks the hell out of me too. It does. I find Carrara to be much easier!
The thing is, why go for only one? If they can have Hexagon and Bryce sitting at the price that they're at now, I can bet that there's a mass of folks who have taken full advantage of that, gladly. And just because DAZ doesn't update stuff as fast as AutoDesk and the others, is that really so bad? Am I the only person on a really tight budget here? I'm telling you... if I could afford that top-notch Character Animation Suite whatever AutoDesk calls that $9,000 version of 3DS, yeah... I would have that! Even LightWave is out of my reach. Luckily for me, Carrara 'already' does what I need. Development can be as slow as it wants to be, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously. If I have to wait two or three more years before I am offered an upgrade to pay for.... I'm down with that. If, however, the upgrade came a few months from now, I'd just have to have it. I am Carrara now. And now, I doubt I would even buy any of AutoDesk's offerings even if I did jump into a category where I could. Carrara has already stolen my heart.
Sorry - you all already know that about me.
Yeabsolutely!
But Bryce truly is it's own deal. And it's really cool. It deserves to step forward again, and I won't be surprised if it happens. Bryce 8 Pro would be a cool thing to see - and so would Hexagon 3.0
Like I said above, DS has far too huge a following to drop.
I can see that the issue here is the timing thing. New releases are not coming fast enough.
Regardless. I still hope that they don't drop any of them. Putting all that jazz into Caarara... Yeah... Yeabsolutely!
I should point out that I, unlike diomede64, am Not sorry for taking up so much of everyone's time.
Seeing as it is the millennium cow, won't we have to wait 987 years to get it? I'd like some program updates in the mean time... possibly with a cow render as the startup image...
I believe if people who are against DAZ Studio really understood what was capable of they would think differently of it.
Ah we all argue in favour of our team :)
It's a tribal thing.
Of course the evidence is before our eyes that each tool can make amazing renders.
From the viewpoint of someone who started with Bryce 2, then bought Bryce 3 with Poser 3 and I forget which number of Raydream as a bundle, (because in those days they were in the same stable), when the Poser 5 debacle happened I did have a look at DS. decided that I didn't like it and went back to using Poser 4 as a plug-in to get my figure etc into Bryce, as that was the reason I bought Poser. I reluctantly upgraded to Poser 6 when it became obvious that the DAZ 3D 4th gen figures weren't going to work in P4.
I guess because I had by then got so acclimatised to the interfaces of these 2 apps I still couldn't get to grips with DS, despite watching my son use it.
He on the other hand did not like Bryce or Poser, but took to DS from the giddy-up go, and has gone from strength to strength, and is now part of an established PA team because of his DS skills.
So I think it is a question of horses for courses. Some like one Program, some like another.
I find I can mostly get on with the Carrara interface, it makes sense to me. although after 15 years using Bryce it will take me a while to get used to the differences in the 2 programs.
My first post on this thread was only meant as an alternative to the OP, not what I would like to see done by DAZ.
If I was to put forward what I would like to see DAZ do, then that would be to stop development on DS, Carrara and Bryce, and spend the next 20 years working just on Hexagon, but of course, that is just my personal thoughts. ROFLOL
I was going to look at the latest beta of DS that has just been released today (Yes, yet more development on DS LOL), but it only allows download via the Install manager. Pity really, I do not install software onto this internet PC, and I am very restrictive on what is installed (and where it is installed) onto my work stations. I certainly do not want a 3rd party install manager on those. Ah well, never mind LOL.
For those whom may not know, DIM may download without installing. It downloads to a specific folder, by default: Docs > DAZ 3D > Install Manager > Downloads. Open the zip and install manually if you like.
I gotta agree with DT. There are serious mental block issues here.
I find both Carrara and DAZ Studio easy to use. Of course, I learn by watching videos, so maybe that's why. But I have watched videos of how to use Houdini and I'm still baffled by it. Some programs were not designed to be easy and Houdini it is you!
DAZ Studio has an interface that you can tweak a lot and make it look the way you want it to look, I think many don't know that. You can make the workspace really big, something that's harder to do in Carrara. DAZ content also loads with fewer issues into Studio and now that we have a more up to date version of 3Delight, it's faster, too, in the rendering department. I'm thinking many tricks that can be done in Carrara may now be possible in Studio, but you still need plugins to get the versatility already in Carrara.
Carrara still has a speedy render engine, that's capable of better output than I usually see posted. The folks that really know how to use it never post anymore or rarely post. But that's a major problem with Studio as well... too many users that don't care to make something spectacularly good.
Jon Stark, the slowdown for 8.5 development was all Genesis related and the associated code changes needed. They already had 9 in development months ago. DAZ talked about it when they were talking about adding Genesis. Genesis slowed everything down. And 8.5 was the Genesis update, but happily they included some nice animation tweaks and some other niceties that weren't originally announced.
I happily use both programs for what they can excel doing. Compositing is a wonderful thing to learn and do and more people should try it. It allows you to use any program to get what you want done without worrying about development delays and work flow impediments. Want a nice landscape or scene in Studio? Render it in Carrara, Bryce or Vue if Stonemason or Jack Tomalin hasn't made a suitable one yet. Then composite your DAZ characters into it or use it as a background. You have to split stuff up to render efficiently on most computers anyway, so plan for it and composite! No one program has everything you need anyway, even between Lightwave, Modo, 3DS Max, messiah, XSI, etc.
Hey, Steve - good to see you here again...
How are you getting on with ANvil? I see it's out of Beta and costing $78 - worth the price?
I second your motion regarding Hex - only thing that would get me away from it is ANvil - if it turned out as well as it promised to :)
Just wanted to quickly point out that this thread is about speculating what DAZ's plans are in regards of developing Carrara, Daz, Bryce and Hex, and make some theories that might put some rhyme or reason to the development cycle. While I admit I did voice my personal opinion that I very much dislike the way Studio works, and never use it unless I absolutely have to, it really isn't about trashing Studio as being a terrible app or anything, so there really is no reason I hope for anyone to feel like their favorite app is being attacked (this goes for any of us Carrara fans, or Bryce fans, or Hex fans, etc). Studio could be the greatest app there ever was, and it wouldn't change the fact that I don't really see a good business reason for why development for Studio continues full force, since the free version already does more than enough to hold the existing customer base in place, buying content. Now if DAZ suddenly shifted gears and announced that Studio 5 Pro will be a paid for version because the advances are so dang good, and if they started charging for it, then I could easily understand all the development they are throwing at it. Heck, if they announced tomorrow that they would no longer be developing Bryce, Carrara, and Hex, and that all are dead products, and that they were focusing all development on Studio because they would be charging for it as a premium app, I wouldn't like that but at least it would make a certain logical sense. But as it's currently a free app, and I don't think that's likely to change anytime soon, I'm left puzzled as to what exactly the plan is.
Just wanted to make sure the intent here isn't to attack any particular app, no reason for anyone to have hurt feelings :)
Just curious what Hex fans want to see changed/improved and what features you guys want added to Hex, as I've heard that it's pretty full featured already. Is it 64 bit already? If not I'm guessing that's probably one of the things Hex users would want. Also, the time I tried to use Hex it crashed on me. A lot. A ton of a lot. It was the one time a software left me nearly weeping in frustration because I was trying to follow a video tutorial and nothing worked for me the way it should, and Hex crashed over and over. May have just been my computer and almost certainly was all user-error caused, but I couldn't help thinking maybe there are some stability issues that Hex users would want ironed out.
I don't hang out in the Hex forums much, but I'm sure Hex users have their own wishlist of what they would want DAZ to do for it development wise, and I was honestly just curious what are the major improvements that are most desired?
Just curious what Hex fans want to see changed/improved and what features you guys want added to Hex, as I've heard that it's pretty full featured already. Is it 64 bit already? If not I'm guessing that's probably one of the things Hex users would want. Also, the time I tried to use Hex it crashed on me. A lot. A ton of a lot. It was the one time a software left me nearly weeping in frustration because I was trying to follow a video tutorial and nothing worked for me the way it should, and Hex crashed over and over. May have just been my computer and almost certainly was all user-error caused, but I couldn't help thinking maybe there are some stability issues that Hex users would want ironed out.
I don't hang out in the Hex forums much, but I'm sure Hex users have their own wishlist of what they would want DAZ to do for it development wise, and I was honestly just curious what are the major improvements that are most desired?
While I understand not all Hex users have the following problems, I always have (on multiple machines and multiple versions). First, I would like the program to run for more than 5 min without crashing (sometimes, it might go 10 min). Second, I would like to open Hex files that I saved before the crash without them being corrupted. Hex has a great incremental save feature, so you do some modeling, do an incremental save (Filename001) do some more work and keep going. At this point, I may have 15 versions saved. Hex then will crash. You think, not problem, I have fifteen versions of this. Well Rev 15 is corrupted. Rev 14 is as well. You may get luck and have Rev3 or 4 open, but you cannot depend on it.
To the best of my knowledge, Hex is not available as a 64 bit app.
I know some folks don't have this problem, but I always have.
ncamp
Someone asked what CarbonCore was....
Carbon was the API built into OSX to provide compatibility to OS9 apps. If it is still being used, then the app has not been fully upgraded. Kind of surprised the CarbonCore is still in the current Apple OS. It was supposed to only be available for a few years.
I left the Apple world back in the OSX 10.3 days so I am definitely out of date on what is happening there.
There must be some sense, on DAZ’s part, that Carrara users DO buy content, want to buy content, and will continue to buy content. Otherwise it would have been foolish to spend the amount of time and resources that they did to enable Carrara to be able to use the Genesis and Genesis 2 products (although I feel this has a long way to go).
However, this does beg the question of - what is the plan?
If Studio is going to continue to be offered at no cost, are they trying to position Carrara as a logical “paid for” upgrade path? If this is the case, I am not sure that this makes a lot of sense as Studio and Carrara are so remarkably different (at least to me). I know that I am generally “lost” and not the least bit happy or comfortable whenever I feel “forced” to venture into to studio to use Generation X or some other product that ONLY works in Studio. It is not so much what Studio can or cannot do, but how it does it that heightens my level of consternation.
I am all for the development of plug-ins, but I prefer they work WITHIN the program I prefer to use. Studio is just a completely foreign environment for me.
So many other programs that have an upgrade path between the entry level, mid, and pro versions have a consistency of interface and operation. One such example is Sony Movie Studio and Sony Vegas Pro. When you go from one to the other, it is very comfortable and familiar. Mostly the “upgrade” versions offer additional capabilities and features – the interface is predominantly the same. The user does suffer shock and a steep learning curve to be able to get started using the “upgraded” version.
While I feel that Carrara needs and deserves a big increase in development resources, I can certainly understand that others do not want the application of their preference to suffer because of this.
I recently submitted a short proposal to DAZ_Spooky of how to create an influx of capital to DAZ that would enable them to “step up” the development of Carrara. He was kind enough to forward it to the appropriate parties at DAZ. The proposal was not meant to represent the be-all, end-all approach, but was instead something that I hoped would begin a dialogue that would culminate in an offer to their customer base to accomplish this much needed development. Unfortunately, I have received no further communication from anyone at DAZ. Not that I think it is incumbent upon DAZ to do so, I was just being hopeful.
I do not believe that any of us know much about their organization – customer base, financing, constraints, staffing, etc. and I am not suggesting that we are entitled to know. I just wish that there was some additional transparency and information from DAZ regarding their plans for Carrara.
Finally, I offer a big thank you, to Jonstark for starting this thread. I think it is a very interesting topic and have enjoyed reading all the opinions expressed thus far.
I can never tell whether my PMs are working or not using the forum. It never shows me whether I actually sent a message or whether it somehow got eaten by whatever software administrates PMs, so just wanted to mention to Kakman that I did receive your pm and replied (and bottom line I think it is a really good idea) just in case it never went through to you. Sorry for derailing to mention that in the public forum, but I don't really know another way to do it :(
Edit: chohole was kind enough to let me know how to change my PM system so that it displayed sent messages. It was my user error, thanks again chohole and again sorry everyone for derailing the topic. Please ignore this post :)
I did receive your response and I thank you very much. I recently sent you a "thank you" PM.
I know that the PM system doesn't lend itself to a high level of confidence in the successful exchange of communications.
I also apologize for the thread interruption.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program…
All we can do is speculate, but being around these forums for a number of years, DAZ Studio users, for the most part, do want their program of choice to advance. 3Delight does continue to be upgraded by DNA and thankfully DAZ is closer to the main release version now. DAZ Studio helps keep users around to see the new content being offered. And new features in Studio allow for more advances in content and keeps the main customers happy, knowing they aren't falling behind. I think DAZ believes it's all connected. You need the program to keep the content users happy, especially since it can be an issue to get DAZ content into other programs. And it's good to keep developers on staff and busy and not just for bug fixes. So there are some good business reasons to keep developing Studio.
Carrara was positioned by DAZ not as an upgrade from studio (even though Studio one time had a Carrara look interface) but as a program to keep folks who had outgrown Studio around. Carrara has better animation abilities, capabilites with flying text, modeling, syncing up sound clips with animation, animated textures without a plugin, landscape creation, a particle generator and more including a faster render engine (when used correctly), though 3Delight keeps getting faster, and network rendering capabilities in Carrara which are prohibited by their license from DNA for using 3Delight in Studio. The network rendering is a good selling point for small production shops that want to do pro work quickly. It would be a mistake to make Carrara more Studio like in its interface as they could lose some of the users they have. Carrara would probably be further along with they hadn't had so many glitches with trying to get Genesis and DUF file support to work. But now it makes things much better for folks who want to use both programs. Now they can focus on getting newer features into v9.
Me, I have no problem going between the programs. I guess it becomes easier with time.