Carrara Peformance and Laptops......

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Comments

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    Jonstark said:
    Just got my new laptop with an intel I7 4700HQ (4 cores hyperthreaded to 8), 8gb of RAM (I'll probably upgrade that to at least 16, but 8 seems pretty great so far) and a Nvidia Geforce 740m gpu graphics card.

    Up til now I've run Carrara (and Thea/Poser/Studio/Luxus etc) on my older laptop, which is a 2nd generation intel I5 (2 cores hyperthreaded to 4) and was able to do so with no real problems, seemed to run smoothly and well, and prior to that I had an even older dual core laptop that ran Carrara fine too.

    But man oh man does that new I7 fly through rendering, and while I didn't expect the Nvidia graphics card to make a lot of difference in Carrara, it really does for scene setup, really complex scenes load very quickly and I get no hesitations in the assembly room at all :) After a bit of effort, I was able to network the new I7 and the older I5 together and use them to network render with the I5 as a node. It really is a thrill to see 12 cores rendering away quickly even on complex and large renders.

    Also gotta mention the new Thearender CPU + GPU version, because I didn't realize it but apparently my basic thearender purchase gave me 2 node licenses as well, so I was able to set up my I5 as the node and network render the 2 together and do a pretty complex scene I had exported out of Carrara to test... oh man oh man oh man! That sucker *screams* it renders so quickly :)

    There's lots of things I didn't realize about network rendering with Carrara before, mostly because I've never done it before and it behaves differently than I expected. For one thing, the cores for the node computer aren't color coded, they are all gray (aww, I wanted to see what other colors Carrara would assign to cores 9 through 12). Also it takes time for the carrara file to be sent to the node computer and it takes time for the node computer to load the scene, so if it's a pretty simple render the primary computer may already have nearly finished the render before the node computer even gets in on the act. Also I never realized you have to save the file first and load it in the batch queue to network render, and that the finished picture goes to 'my documents' and gets saved there (gave me a start when my render suddenly vanished from the render room in Carrara just as it finished).

    Still, it feels really thrilling to actually have a render farm! (of 2 laptops, does that still count? lol)

    I was going to go with a desktop tower for my next computer but honestly couldn't justify it at the moment because I could get similar spec components in a laptop for less expense (weird, that wasn't what I was expecting) but hey laptops work great with Carrara :)

    You can set a file name and location in the render room. Comes in handy for image sequences! ;-)

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    I was really going mad when I've first used Win 8. As I got used to ignoring the pseudo android portion, I was feeling treated to actually the best Windows to date. I still don't like the apps part of it - but like I said, that part is easily ignored if you don't wish to use it. As I've started seeing Windows Phones and little Android-style (actually iOS-style) tablets, I can understand better why they're trying that route. But for me, I would have already rather gone with something that has Windows, simply because it can then run software that I like to use.


    Garstor said:
    I see those Pro folks at ILM and other big house studios using those dog gone Cintiqs... Man I would love to design that way!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ibiObtFLGyE

    You might like that clip then. Yes, the product placement was quite intentional...but it is still pretty good.Wow. I would love to one day own something like that. Not yet available (so it seems) with an i7 with 4 physical cores hyping to 8 logical, but still.

    I have the Wacom Graphire 3, from yesteryear. I keep forgetting to practice with it so I still cannot really report on how good it is! LOL
    But when I use it with Dogwaffle, it truly feels like whatever media I have the Dogwaffle brush set up to emulate. So I do like it. So for me, I would truly need to weigh the difference before jumping in to buy these newer technologies - especially since Carrara is my main reason to turn on a computer-like device.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Steve K said:
    LinkRS said:

    Hi Steve,

    ... Bottom line, is people don't like change ...

    If the changes are truly "improvements", that's one thing, but too many changes in Windows seem to be just for the sake of change. It gives the impression of a huge army of programmers who have to justify their salaries. Humorist Dave Barry puts it best:

    http://blogs.herald.com/dave_barrys_blog/2013/10/a-brief-statement-about-windows-8.html

    FWIW, I agree 100% with Steve K.

    Step back a bit and consider what an Operating System is. It’s a bunch of software operating in the background that ENABLES you to use the really cool applications on your really cool computer hardware. The cool and fun things are the apps and the hardware. But an operating system is, if you really think about it, pretty boring to the average user. I mean just look at Windows 7 compared to older versions of Windows. From a user perspective is there really much functional difference between those versions?

    If you think about it, Microsoft has a really big challenge in getting people excited about new versions of Windows. A HUGE challenge. Why? Well, what new cool features can it add and still fit the definition of Operating System? Not many. In contrast, look at the awesome apps you have on your machine….games, 3D stuff, whatever. THAT is where the cool stuff happens.

    So Microsoft is constantly thinking of ways to get people excited about their newest OS, and has to come up with changes that, somehow, excite people, when in fact the whole thing is pretty boring.

    And one of the ways technology companies have done this is to attach a COOL factor to any new technology. Now of course there are some who don’t like change, and some even have good reasons for resisting. But on the other hand there are MANY people who have grown up with the ingrained culture of believing that ANY new technology is AWESOME, solely because it’s new technology. So I give those tech companies and their advertising firms a lot of credit for convincing people of something that generates incredibly huge revenues in an industry which, not too long ago, didn’t even exist. That’s why you see people waiting for days in front of an Apple store for the latest technology. But they’ll never admit that the latest technology really, in fact, sucks, because as everyone knows, all new technology is, by definition, AWESOME. The goal is not “improvements” as much as it is “changes”, ANY changes, as long as they can be sold as AWESOMENESS !!!

    Personally, as someone who has been using various OS’s since the 1980’s I think that Windows is, and always has been, a disgusting excuse for an operating system. After all of these years, IMO, it STILL doesn’t have some of the basic functionality one would expect from an operating system. And in many ways, what it does have is implemented so poorly that it’s incredible that people have accepted it for so long. But I think for many, technology has become entertainment, and many people enjoy passing their time trying to figure it all out. But for me, when it comes to operating systems, I’m firmly in the camp that doesn’t want changes, only improvements to existing features that are implemented so incredibly poorly. Change the apps, change the hardware, but operating systems should be operating quietly and efficiently in the background, telling me what’s going on in ways that normal people can understand.

    For example, recently I tried to download Windows updates. And it failed. And, as usual, the error message I received was “Windows encountered an unknown error”. And when I use the Windows Troubleshooter to, for example, troubleshoot a networking problem, the answer is something along the lines of “Windows couldn’t identify the problem”. Now, after over 30 years of developing an operating system, are they serious that they still can’t figure out how to write code that will determine why things aren’t working? Instead, they focus on a fancy new Android-ish interface. Great. Just what I need.

    Anyway, in the end, I think many objective observers might agree that for a vast majority of the population, all of this new technology is, in fact, when you get down to it, nothing more than entertainment. Playing video games, posting goofy videos on Youtube, goofing with your friends on Facebook, listening to music, watching movies, and even figuring out all the technology and getting it to work. It’s all entertainment. People sit on their computers, or walk around locked into their smartphones or tablets, all day long, being entertained. And I think the tech companies realize that, to a large extent, many users enjoy, and are entertained by trying to figure this cryptic stuff out, so maybe they don’t put extra effort to make it easier to use. That would ruin the fun.

    Even though many would like to see this as a grand and noble “information age” or “internet age”, where the world has so many sources of knowledge and information at its fingertips, I think, in practice it can best be described as “The Entertainment Age”. That’s REALLY what people use it all for. Never before have there been so many sources of entertainment, instantly accessible at your fingertips.

    Sorry for the rant. My laptop has been suddenly shutting down unexpectedly without telling me why. Another “unknown error” I suppose. Windows 8? Yeah, whatever. Unfortunately, I’m not one of those people who is entertained by figuring out “unknown errors”.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    The big change that I loved in Windows 7, from what I had before, is 64 bit OS, allowing for a much needed over 4GB RAM. Again, I really have no clue about most of this stuff. Like joe says, it's a boring freaking OS. When W8 comes along trying to take the boring out of it, I got somewhat upset. Click on an app in my start window that led me to believe I could access my movie files, and I get launched into some silly XBox Live store that systematically starts cataloging, online and without asking my permission first, except perhaps in some fine print that was tossed into some sign-up that was needed to access this app, all of the content on my computer. A total waste of my time which, at that time, I had very little of. So it truly left a sour taste in my mouth. To me, the app functionality was very slow and time-consuming. Something I cannot afford during my computer sessions. All too often I get very little time to go onto my computer - and I need to just go!

    One thing that I do love about Microsoft and all of their OS is that they sell it as a separate package. I know I could build an Apple but they don't operate that way. I'm also not the kind of person that wants to spend a lot of time figuring out how to use an OS, so many of the Linux options aren't right for me either.

    Windows 7 64 bit came along just at the right time - when I was building this workstation. Okay, I call it a workstation, but it's just a jazzed up PC - that's all. But Windows actually is really nice in helping to sort out all of the stuff that goes along with setting up your system. So all I have to do is to design my build making sure that all of my components are made to work nicely with each other, order the parts, and build it. I also have the habit of collecting all of the latest drives for all of my build's components before building, and storing them on a disc or flash drive. Even then, Windows makes the driver update process simple for me.

    I was so happy with XP Pro, that it was hard to get excited about 7, except that Carrara 8 Pro was in beta, and it was going 64 bit!
    I really like Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. Maybe Pro is better? But MS didn't give me any reasons for the extra expense when I looked into it.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    Getting back to the original topic a bit more:

    I find it an excellent day in the age of shopping for a new computer no matter what you want to do with it. It wasn't long ago that, in order to purchase a laptop with far less than half - or even a quarter - of what today's laptops can do, it would cost you roughly five thousand dollars.

    Today you may go to Walmart or any other discount warehouse and buy anything they have and bring home a fine machine for only a few hundred dollars. I bought an Acer AspireOne netbook-like laptop thingy that is just fantastic! It uses an Atom processor and has 2 GB RAM. So it's not super special as far as computers for Carrara go. But the thing runs Dogwaffle amazingly smooth, and gives me a tiny, flat device that I can easily take anywhere that runs a Windows OS! That's huge! I just saw one like it at Target the other day that runs an AMD Quad core cpu with 4GB RAM and a decent graphics solution. Same size (tiny), same company (Acer - whom I've grown to trust) and a really small price, but this one is perfectly capable of becoming a tiny, portable Carrara design notebook!

    Depending upon what you want to spend, any computer you see that is capable of running Windows 7 is perfectly capable of running Carrara. Here are some considerations to help decide which would be better for Carrara:

    CPU - the more cpu cores, the faster the render. CPU speed also plays a factor, but the higher number of cores usually wins at render time. However, if you're not in a hurry to see that final result, Carrara can often crank out a good render even on a single core - it just takes longer.

    Graphics - The better the graphics solution, the smoother you experience will be while building and working with your scenes. In this same respect:

    RAM - Higher doses of RAM will also increase your productivity in any app, especially Carrara.

    HDD - A nice amount of storage is also good if you plan to actually run Carrara.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 3,232
    edited December 1969

    ... It wasn't long ago that, in order to purchase a laptop with far less than half - or even a quarter - of what today's laptops can do, it would cost you roughly five thousand dollars ...

    A few more thoughts (maybe mentioned back there somewhere, I dunno). It used to be that laptops had all proprietary components so the local shop couldn't work on them. Now my local guy can upgrade/fix any laptop. Also, I've read that laptop reliability has passed desktops, at least by some reports. This may in part be due to "desktops" sitting on the floor under the table and only getting pulled out when they stop working due to the four pounds of dust they've sucked up (happened to me - an air purifier is a good idea IMHO, ~$50). Years ago, my default was a high end Dell "workstation", now its a high end Toshiba laptop. My current Win7 model runs Carrara great, and I'll probably get a new one (Core i7, ~12GB RAM, dual hard drives with Casper bootable backup, 17" screen, Win 8.1 64 bit, good video card, ~$1200).

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 3,232
    edited December 1969

    From CNNMoney recently, in an article about Windows 9 desired features: "The abrupt move between Windows 8's starkly contrasting tile and desktop environments has left a bad taste in the mouths of many users." If the original sentence was written by a Win8 user at CNN, I'm guessing the senior editor had to replace all the words after "environments" to avoid losing Microsoft's advertising. Words like "Hindenburg", "Titanic", "#%$#%$$", "Vista", etc.

    http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/16/technology/enterprise/windows-9/index.html?source=cnn_bin

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    Steve K said:
    ... It wasn't long ago that, in order to purchase a laptop with far less than half - or even a quarter - of what today's laptops can do, it would cost you roughly five thousand dollars ...

    A few more thoughts (maybe mentioned back there somewhere, I dunno). It used to be that laptops had all proprietary components so the local shop couldn't work on them. Now my local guy can upgrade/fix any laptop. Also, I've read that laptop reliability has passed desktops, at least by some reports. This may in part be due to "desktops" sitting on the floor under the table and only getting pulled out when they stop working due to the four pounds of dust they've sucked up (happened to me - an air purifier is a good idea IMHO, ~$50). Years ago, my default was a high end Dell "workstation", now its a high end Toshiba laptop. My current Win7 model runs Carrara great, and I'll probably get a new one (Core i7, ~12GB RAM, dual hard drives with Casper bootable backup, 17" screen, Win 8.1 64 bit, good video card, ~$1200).That's a perfect Carrara machine, right there! Perfect.
    With that low of a price, why do anything else? I'm assuming that the i7 is the one with eight logical cores? Of course it is. Comes all built and ready to go. 17" is fine for me and with a build like that, I'd bet that it has plenty of graphics for OpenGL.
    I love building computers, but with a laptop as you main PC, when you do go somewhere, you can bring your main work, rather than a compromise of it. Grab another when you can just as a portable render node. None of my animations would take long being rendered on sixteen i7 cores.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 3,232
    edited December 1969

    That's a perfect Carrara machine, right there! ... I'd bet that it has plenty of graphics for OpenGL.

    Yes, the OpenGL works fine on my W7 machine. Here are the detailed specs I'm looking at, $1160 for a Toshiba Satellite P70-ABT3G22 Laptop, 17.3" screen. This will be my umpteenth Toshiba laptop (including my wife's), no real problems so far. I have not bought a desktop in many years.

    LAPTOP SUMMARY
    Customized

    Intel® Core™ i7-4700MQ Processor (6M Cache, up to 3.40 GHz) with Intel® Turbo Boost Technology
    Windows 8.1
    12GB DDR3L 1600MHz SDRAM (8GB + 4GB)
    1TB (5400rpm, Serial ATA)
    No SSD Drive
    1TB 2nd HDD (5400rpm, Serial-ATA)
    2GB GDDR3 NVIDIA ® GeForce® GT 740M with Optimus™ Technology
    DVD SuperMulti (+/-R double layer) drive
    Premium Frameless LED Backlit Raised Tile Keyboard with 10-Keypad (black)
    Intel® Wireless-N 7260, 2x2 BGN + WiDi + Bluetooth 4.0 (300Mbps)
    1 month trial for new Office 365 customers
    Norton™ Internet Security 2013 (30-day trial subscription)
    1 Year Standard Limited Warranty (1 Year on Battery)

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    Gorgeous! Say, are both HDDs internal? No biggie if they aren't but... Yikes, that's a fine machine and a truly wonderful price.
    I am now totally considering going that route and using my big box as a network render node. Thanks for the added info.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 3,232
    edited December 1969

    Gorgeous! Say, are both HDDs internal? No biggie if they aren't but... Yikes, that's a fine machine and a truly wonderful price.
    I am now totally considering going that route and using my big box as a network render node. Thanks for the added info.

    Yes, both HDD's are internal. As I mentioned, I use the second for bootable backup using "Casper" (like Norton's discontinued "Ghost", get it?). They have improved Casper so it only takes ~10 minutes to back up the entire hard disk, used to be hours. Presumably it tracks which files have changed, or something.

    On the down side, Toshiba Direct no longer offers dual internal batteries, so the life is less, but still pretty good I think.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    I never run on just batteries anyways, except to get from here to there.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    There is one thing that drives me nuts about most laptops - all that I have owned - that I just cannot stand, compared to a well-built box tower. Air space control. My tower was carefully designed with cooling in mind. Laptops are, too, but none of the laptops I've owned grant any access at all towards cleaning the actual fan or fans inside. I filter all of my intake slots on my tower, keeping the interior nice and clean. I also use a large, spacious bow as the tower for plenty of air movement.

    My original Carrara machine was (is) a laptop and gets really hot when I put it through extended render sessions. The whir of the fans on my workstation are testament to why my little laptop is suffering... rendering maxes the cpu core completely throughout the duration of the render session.

    Just something to keep in mind, if you're planning to make your own movies.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,739
    edited December 1969

    There is one thing that drives me nuts about most laptops - all that I have owned - that I just cannot stand, compared to a well-built box tower. Air space control. My tower was carefully designed with cooling in mind. Laptops are, too, but none of the laptops I've owned grant any access at all towards cleaning the actual fan or fans inside. I filter all of my intake slots on my tower, keeping the interior nice and clean. I also use a large, spacious bow as the tower for plenty of air movement.

    My original Carrara machine was (is) a laptop and gets really hot when I put it through extended render sessions. The whir of the fans on my workstation are testament to why my little laptop is suffering... rendering maxes the cpu core completely throughout the duration of the render session.

    Just something to keep in mind, if you're planning to make your own movies.

    MSI Gaming laptops have cooler boost, a button activated high speed cooling fan that keeps them from getting hot like other laptops I've owned. I've run CPU renders that took over 70 hours, and it didn't feel hot anywhere on the machine, but the exhaust vent was pretty warm. Running Octane for hours with cooler boost on the GPU temp stays between 58 and 61, depending on the house temp. You can find out more about cooler boost here:
    http://event.msi.com/nb/faq/q11.html

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,522
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    There is one thing that drives me nuts about most laptops - all that I have owned - that I just cannot stand, compared to a well-built box tower. Air space control. My tower was carefully designed with cooling in mind. Laptops are, too, but none of the laptops I've owned grant any access at all towards cleaning the actual fan or fans inside. I filter all of my intake slots on my tower, keeping the interior nice and clean. I also use a large, spacious bow as the tower for plenty of air movement.

    My original Carrara machine was (is) a laptop and gets really hot when I put it through extended render sessions. The whir of the fans on my workstation are testament to why my little laptop is suffering... rendering maxes the cpu core completely throughout the duration of the render session.

    Just something to keep in mind, if you're planning to make your own movies.

    MSI Gaming laptops have cooler boost, a button activated high speed cooling fan that keeps them from getting hot like other laptops I've owned. I've run CPU renders that took over 70 hours, and it didn't feel hot anywhere on the machine, but the exhaust vent was pretty warm. Running Octane for hours with cooler boost on the GPU temp stays between 58 and 61, depending on the house temp. You can find out more about cooler boost here:
    http://event.msi.com/nb/faq/q11.htmlPerhaps.
    And laptops are some very well made computers these days, don't get me wrong.
    But I wish they would at least provide an access panel or a cleanable filter for the intake, so that the actual consumer may clean it out without cracking open the shell of the thing and voiding the warranty.
    Again, MSI Gaming laptops may already have this feature.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 3,232
    edited December 1969

    Perhaps.
    And laptops are some very well made computers these days, don't get me wrong.
    But I wish they would at least provide an access panel or a cleanable filter for the intake, so that the actual consumer may clean it out without cracking open the shell of the thing and voiding the warranty.
    Again, MSI Gaming laptops may already have this feature.

    A good idea. I have to say the only overheating problems I've had have been with towers, due to the on-the-floor, under-the-table dust collection I mentioned earlier. I've owned a lot of Toshiba laptops, no overheating problems. (I realize I should not say stuff like that, likely to cause a complete meltdown tonight). The tower problem did inspire me to buy a room air cleaner, maybe a factor.

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