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Normal Maps? Coloured or Blue? Methods of simulating wrinkles in Clothes?

HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Dah hi ;) silly question time.


I guess that Carrara takes normal maps tjhat are blue.
I ask because
Inagoni Baker I notice puts out also coloured ones. Are these just related to z brush?

Only asking because, I'm tryingto use normal maps to simulate clothing wrinkles and really can't tell the difference.... :(
unless I jack the value up very high.

Any methods for simulating wrinkles in clothes without going the displacement route?

Eg could you use displacment, export the mesh with the dispplacement as an object with added geometry ?
then err , umm,
The idea would be to use the displacement as a normal map generator I guess.

Not for animation ,just stills.

thanks for your advice

regards from oz :)

Comments

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    HI Head Wax :)

    Typically, a normal map should be a mix of red and blue, in the same way that a Bump or displacement map is a mix of black and white.
    See example Normal and Bump / displacement maps

    The baker normal maps "for Z-brush" should work fine from a model, but again, Filterforge or several other programs can be used to generate a normal map without the modelling steps.

    Hope it helps :)

    bump_example.jpg
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    normal_example.jpg
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  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    I'm a big believer in "there's no wrinkles like real wrinkles". If you just want some type of map that adds foldy-ness to the mesh, then IMO you'll get something that looks unlike real wrinkles.


    I'm not sure what type of object you want to add wrinkles to, but I would tend to generate real folds based on the parameters of the particular cloth you're modelling. It's extremely difficult, IMO, to hand draw an image map to generate wrinkles appropriate for the cloth you're simulating.


    So I'd first look at taking the mesh into a cloth sim (Poser, Blender, Bullet, whatever) and drape the cloth so that you get appropriate wrinkles, then export the result either as a morph target, or as a replacement object that you can re-rig, or whatever way is appropriate to what you're doing.


    I also recall there was a lot of discussion a while back about normal maps in Carrara, and I think bottom line they aren't really any better than bump maps. Unless you're talking about displacement maps, not normal maps.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    This is a "second skin" body suit on V3, using normal maps included with a bodysuit texture I bought at Rendo. The wrinkles and seams are from the normal maps (there are issues, it was converted from a texture for V4). the vinyl surface texture is procedural bump in Carrara, so I am combining bump and normal map.

    Doc42.png
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  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited July 2012

    Part of the problem is that normal maps don't really show "height" the way a bumpmap does, so cranking up the values on your wrinkles isn't making it look more wrinkled... (it is making the effect more pronounced, but not really adding the illusion of physical height...


    Normal maps show "slope".... The light blue color is essentially flat. The other colors tilt the slope in various directions based on a gradient light to dark. It looks like colored lights are off to the sides casting shadows, and that is more or less what normal maps are...


    Here's a tutorial where someone is making normal maps from actual objects using side-lighting and color correction in photoshop: http://zarria.net/nrmphoto/nrmphoto.html For me this makes normal maps easier to understand. One slope is brighter, the opposite slope is in shadow. The brighter and darker the colors the steeper the slope....


    What you probably need is a wrinkle normal map with sharper gradients. With some experimentation you might be able to take your normal map into photoshop and play with the levels in each channel to see what kind of effects you get. Essentially (I think) you want higher contrast in the green and red channels, but I have not tried this myself, so that is just my best guess....

    normalmapb.jpg
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    Post edited by wetcircuit on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited December 1969

    thanks so much for the quick replies!
    unfortunately have been called out of town
    will reply properly tomorrow
    appreciate everyone's sharing their knowledge
    I'm glad I asked!
    cheers

  • richard.chaos_91798ec102richard.chaos_91798ec102 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I like the old fashion way in carrara! Texture map done in Photoshop. then Grayscale it put in BUMP and wala! I watched a tutorial on youtube about was great! Using the SMUDGE tool to drag out Black and white images! Its been working out so great I have had to turn DOWN the value...

    See this


    Here are some samples..

    Seat_Gang2.jpg
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    1.jpg
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  • richard.chaos_91798ec102richard.chaos_91798ec102 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Here is my bump map for the SHIRT of the pilot!

    Shirt_BUMP.jpg
    1800 x 1800 - 782K
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited December 1969

    3dage wrote

    HI Head Wax

    Typically, a normal map should be a mix of red and blue, in the same way that a Bump or displacement map is a mix of black and white.
    See example Normal and Bump / displacement maps

    The baker normal maps “for Z-brush” should work fine from a model, but again, Filterforge or several other programs can be used to generate a normal map without the modelling steps.

    Hope it helps

    Thanks Andy, yes it does help. I have Nvidia plugin for phtoshop and another program and both generate blue bump maps. It wasn't till I played with Baker that I saw it generates both blue and multicoloured maps. From memory it was rainbow coloured though. (That computer is crashed so I can't post he map :( )

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited December 1969

    JoeMamma2000 said:
    I'm a big believer in "there's no wrinkles like real wrinkles". If you just want some type of map that adds foldy-ness to the mesh, then IMO you'll get something that looks unlike real wrinkles.


    I'm not sure what type of object you want to add wrinkles to, but I would tend to generate real folds based on the parameters of the particular cloth you're modelling. It's extremely difficult, IMO, to hand draw an image map to generate wrinkles appropriate for the cloth you're simulating.


    So I'd first look at taking the mesh into a cloth sim (Poser, Blender, Bullet, whatever) and drape the cloth so that you get appropriate wrinkles, then export the result either as a morph target, or as a replacement object that you can re-rig, or whatever way is appropriate to what you're doing.


    I also recall there was a lot of discussion a while back about normal maps in Carrara, and I think bottom line they aren't really any better than bump maps. Unless you're talking about displacement maps, not normal maps.

    JoeMamma thanks I wasn't aware of the normal map discussion. It certainly aligns with what Iv'e found so far in that case.Which is why I asked the question I guess. And yes you are right there's no wrinkles like real wrinkles I only got to look in the mirror for that to be confirmed ....

    For use? I am wrinlking some shirts etc as my critique group has flagged a lack of wrinkles in my illustrations.
    What you suggest in draping the cloth in Poser at al is good idea but I will be probably doing many images and it would be impractical to use morphtargets. The only practical way is to draw them either in post or on the texture map before rendering

    Thanks for your suggestion and headsup onthe other thread

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited December 1969

    Holly wrote

    Part of the problem is that normal maps don’t really show “height” the way a bumpmap does, so cranking up the values on your wrinkles isn’t making it look more wrinkled… (it is making the effect more pronounced, but not really adding the illusion of physical height…


    Normal maps show “slope”.... The light blue color is essentially flat. The other colors tilt the slope in various directions based on a gradient light to dark. It looks like colored lights are off to the sides casting shadows, and that is more or less what normal maps are…


    Here’s a tutorial where someone is making normal maps from actual objects using side-lighting and color correction in photoshop: http://zarria.net/nrmphoto/nrmphoto.html For me this makes normal maps easier to understand. One slope is brighter, the opposite slope is in shadow. The brighter and darker the colors the steeper the slope….


    What you probably need is a wrinkle normal map with sharper gradients. With some experimentation you might be able to take your normal map into photoshop and play with the levels in each channel to see what kind of effects you get. Essentially (I think) you want higher contrast in the green and red channels, but I have not tried this myself, so that is just my best guess….


    Thnaks HollyWetcircuit. :) It certainly is a second skin :)
    To combine the normal map and the bump map in the shader room did you use an Operator? Eg Multiply, overlay etc?
    Thanks for the link to th etut and theinfo on the colour channels.
    I guess I should sit down and play with a UV eed mapped grey sphere and see what happenes with the different colours.

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited July 2012

    Mr Chaos Wroteth:

    I like the old fashion way in carrara! Texture map done in Photoshop. then Grayscale it put in BUMP and wala! I watched a tutorial on youtube about was great! Using the SMUDGE tool to drag out Black and white images! Its been working out so great I have had to turn DOWN the value…

    See this


    Smudge tool? How cool is that? The wrinkles look very good Richard.
    Thanks fo rthat suggestion.
    It is a tool I rarely use in post work so I forget it exists.
    Much obliged for those examples.
    I think I will go and fire up photo shop .... ;)

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013
    edited January 2017

    edited for precision

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013

    anyone using this or displacemnt maps to simulate wrinkles?

    I've been drawing then in in post on a layer filled with 50 percent grey and made into an overlay paremeter - then dodging and burning that layer to add shadows and highlights

    also using the liquify tool in affinity photo

     

  • Bunyip02Bunyip02 Posts: 8,719
    edited September 2021

    Just for fun I made a quick wrinkles normal map out of a multiple leaf picture and applied it to a piece of clothing.

    LHS - No Normal  RHS - with Normal (click on image for bigger picture to see difference)

    Shader setup

    Normal map

    Wrinkles WIP 1.png
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    Wrinkles WIP 2.png
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    Wrinkles 1_NORM 1024.png
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    Post edited by Bunyip02 on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,320
    edited September 2021

    I don't own it but there is also this

    https://www.daz3d.com/wrinkle-3d

    it is a standalone by looks that wrinkles the mesh itself but you could subdivide a mesh and use it then use Xnormal to generate normal maps from it for the original mesh

    only link I have for Xnormal looks a bit odd but safer than the others Google gives

    https://xnormal.net/

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • mschackmschack Posts: 337
    edited September 2021

    I have been experimenting with using blender to take an object and bake a normal map from a hi res sculpt of the object.  Then you can use the normal map in the bump channel.

    Here is a nice quick tutorial I found on the sculpting/baking procedure in blender.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tndUB5b4STI

    Btw, Blender is amazing for doing uvs, just using the 'Smart UV project'.

    Post edited by mschack on
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013

    Thanks for the answers! 

    Bunyip that looks pretty neat!

    Wendy, yes ikd firgotten about wrinkle. I have it, from memory it has a major flaw.... maybe you can only ‘bake ‘ the wrinkles in one pose ?? Will have to dig it up.

     

    thanks for that link mschack - will check it out .

     

    any other ideas welcome 

     

    been going through old forum posts , there are some that are a gildmine and deserve to be dredged up

  • StezzaStezza Posts: 8,136

    I use normals for clothing wrinkles

    it needs to be cranked up to at least 110+ yes

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 10,013

    Stezza said:

    I use normals for clothing wrinkles

    it needs to be cranked up to at least 110+ yes

    Thanks Stezza :) 

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