Looking for suggestions and criticism
thoreandan
Posts: 151
A little background: I've been fooling around with DAZ Studio on and off again for the last few years, primarily using Reality and Luxrender to render. This is a casual hobby for me and I render mostly for my own amusement, but like any "artist" I like to occasionally see what others think of my work. Early on I spent too much money on content and not enough time rendering, so I got burned out with my own disappointing results. But lately I have been coming back to it when the mood strikes.
I've posted a few images in the gallery recently, and (not surprisingly based on my newb-level skills) they were mostly ignored. The gallery isn't a good place for obtaining constructive criticism, so I thought I'd post here periodically to see if I could gather some ideas on how to get better at this, and perhaps make an image now and then that other people might enjoy.
The image I'm posting here (previously posted to the gallery as well) I had fun creating, she's a character I've had in my head for awhile. I'm pretty happy with some aspects of it, I like the pose and expression, I'm trying to convey she's laid back but confident, attractive to humans (and she knows it) despite some of her demonic features, and she's probably a bit of a wise-ass. The outfit is not achieving what I envision in my mind. While I like the idea of the sheer robe because I think it fits her personality but I also don't want it to be so revealing that skin exposure becomes the focus of the image. I render my share of pin-ups, but I wasn't going for that here. However, the under-dress ended up kind of bland, I need to find something more interesting to take its place.
I'm considering a different wing prop, this one was able to achieve the shape I wanted but it's a bit ugly for a demoness that's supposed to be attractive. They're supposed to be showy, her way of expressing "behold how magnificent I am".
This was also one of my first attempts at any kind of post-work. The fog was not in the render, for example. The results are mediocre to my eyes. I definitely need more practice with Photoshop techniques.
The other thing I'm not particularly pleased with is the ground, it's too obviously "ground texture on a flat plane". I don't think giving the ground more shape will be enough. But I don't want to fill it with grass props that take up too much memory and slow down the render to a crawl, either, I tried that and it wasn't worth it.
I am mostly happy with the look of the portal, although maybe a little over-exposed. No postwork there, it's tinted water and a colored mesh light.
Anyway, any suggestions on what would make this a more interesting image, or any ideas on how to improve some of the technical aspects, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Comments
Two things jump to my mind: Composition, and color.
The character is completely in the center of the render, and the glowing circle and the wings really reinforce that position. That makes a tad in-your-face. I understand that putting things in the center is tempting, but the Rule of Thirds really has something going for it. Also, the wings take up a proportionally large part of the scene. That makes them pop out quite a bit, overwhelming the demoness herself.
I think that the colors add to that effect. The demon chick is mostly a rather muted brownish-red color. The wings and the portal use very vibrant, bright colors. So you're basically de-emphasizing the main character, and drawing the eyes to the stage. Also, the light does weird things to the scepter.
Don't get me wrong - it's not bad at all! These were just two points I think could be improved :)
The scepter actually has its own light in the center of the ring, which seemed like a good idea at the time but now I see that it is distracting. Maybe a muted glow would be better, or I'll just turn it back to a solid surface.
Your points also highlight something I didn't notice until now: This image doesn't seem to know if it's a portrait or a larger "scene", and the perspective and composition has therefore ended up somewhere in the middle. If it's a scene it should have quite a bit more implied action than just "walking", or if it's a portrait, the character needs much more emphasis and to take up more space. Interesting how easy it is to get lost in details and lose sight of the bigger picture sometimes.
Thank you very much.
The artistic blur is pretty. Thanks for posting. Hopefully your thread will receive more helpful comments and tips as the days go by.
I think you have a great concept for a character and you have got it most of the way there in terms of components to meet your vision and like what you have done so far:). I few compositional suggestions I have that may help tweaking your current setup (this only a suggestion and there are as many ways as there are artists:). Perhaps angle the path to the centre of the image to break the symmetry and give a leading line into your character (this may mean moving the portal aside a little). I've done my share of demonic characters and I have found the Nightworld Wings set to a useful one from some fairly unique shaped wings and some helpful poses with them.
With regards to clothing, I used to keep searching the store for that one item that fits my vision, what didn't occur to me until fairly recently was I should have been looking at the form of the clothing not the textures also the fact I could stack clothing and just hide the features or materials zones I didn't want. You may be able to get the look you are after through making some material zones semi transparent or applying different shaders to give the feel you may want. The Phoebe Dress shaders seen quite rich and slightly gothic in feel spring to mind (but this is a matter of personal preference). My only other thought maybe to consider lowering you camera angle slightly looking up slightly at the character with may help give the character additional presence. Fog can be a difficult one to build up if you use photoshop keeping it in its own layer is handy as you can change the transparency of the layer to tone down the effect if you feel it is too strong. Most of all have fun experimenting, sometimes the most interesting creations come through mixing it all up:)
This http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/12654/ may help with some composition techniques.
Having your subject in the middle is ok if you can use light to draw the viewers eyes to where you want the to go. It does take practice and time to get that right but so worth the effort. Yes the light on the floor, sceptre and the portal does draw the eye away from your character and at some level so does the wing colour. Composition is more than where objects are placed, light, camera angle, camera DOF, colours and props can add to draw the eyes around the image,
For those that don't have much artistic experience thinking it is hard trust it isn't and I have no artistic experience for over 40 years. All it takes is for you to step back and ask yourself what are trying to say with the image. Like you I do this for myself so if I am happy with an image then I have succeeded.
Thank you very much for the feedback and suggestions, I will definitely experiment with different angles and ways of breaking up the symmetry. I have a tendency to lock the camera at the height of a human observer, thinking this was a "realistic" approach, but I clearly need to break out of that limitation. Part of the concept is that the observer has summoned her, and she is walking towards the observer, but I think I will either have to give up that conceit or convey it differently.
I have also made the same realization with clothing, and I'm learning to make do with what I already have using material zone techniques and custom textures. I think I just need to really envision what I want to see her wearing and work towards that goal, instead I was too hung up on what clothing models I have that worked under the smoothing modifier of the sheer gown, etc.
Thanks for the Photoshop advice, only recently I have been learning how to keep changes adjustable and reversible using smart filters, adjustment layers, etc. Most users probably know about this stuff but I was in the dark for a long time.
By the way, I have enjoyed many of your images in the gallery, "Protector" is one of my favorites, a beautiful image with a beautiful character. I love the composition and viewpoint of that one.
Thank you. The "blur" is actually a bit of noise overlaid with the image, but I'm not 100% satisfied with that effect, I think it is obscuring her face to some degree, and I've since read up on a few other techniques that I think will be more effective in adding texture, I just need to experiment once I have a revised render. Or I may want to just mask the effect a bit over the character, and let it come in stronger in the background.
Oddly enough, I think I sometimes try to let some arbitrary concept of "realism" interfere with what I am trying to do with an image, trying to mimic real lighting situations, angles, and perspective, instead of using these things as tools.
Thank you for the suggestions and encouragement. I have enjoyed many of your images as I have lurked on the forums over the last few years, "Singing the Blues" jumps out in particular in my memory.
Thanks Thoreandan yeah in one way following the concept of realism can help with lighting but I think many people get hung up about it and therefore the artistic side gets forgot about...sometimes.
Lowering the camera pointing it up can often make the subject seems more powerful and dominant, the lower you go the more the effect. Someone could be knelling, begging for mercy. LOL
Your framing isn't bad, not perfect but close, very close.
It is all about having an impact on the viewer.
Here's a work in progress with a new perspective and composition. I changed the position of the portal/wall and curved the stone path. I also changed the wings and her hair. I changed some of the clothing details, trying different clothes under the sheer robe.
I'm still working on all of the materials, particularly her clothes and hair, and experimenting with placement of the background elements. I'm also considering some different lighting approaches, I'm trying to find a balance between darkening the background a little but maintaining the relatively crisp shadows expected from moonlight.
I'm probably going to discard the tail in the next version, although in my head it's a cute aspect of the character, it's not coming out quite the way I want here and since she already has horns and wings it's probably not really necessary.
This camera perspective has changed the appearance of her face significantly, which I'm not sure I like, I'll have to experiment with that and with different head/neck poses. She has more presence from this angle, but from photographic principles I've picked up I know that people have a more attractive facial appearance when the camera is angled down at them instead of up, and I think that is evident here.
But I do think the character is better emphasized now, and I think the implied left to right movement between the portal and the character makes the image a little more dynamic.
The atmosphere was better in the original, but a lot of that developed in postwork and I'm not there yet with this WIP.
Any thoughts on the new composition would be greatly appreciated.
I have some thoughts but I have visitors at the moment....yeah I am coming dear.....quickly I will say my eyes get drawn to her face immediately....ouch bye brb soon.
I was just thinking earlier that having that cyan coloured ball in the background could be use to add some backlight but using a point light Tutorial Point Lights, The Basics: in front of the cyan ball but not too close and colour the light a similar colour. You will have to play about with the height of the point light to get some rim/backlight on the figure but not too high. LOL And high enough so you don't get a really bright spot on the ground, though you could take the Diffuse Strength of the ground texture down to 70 - 60% if it gets too bright.
This is just a suggestion it may not work feel free to ignore me and do what you, the artist want to do with the image...it is your choice and always will be. :) But give it a go and see what happens. You could use a Linear point light so you can keep the light restricted while still making it bright...not realistic but artistically very flexible compared to a normal point light.
This is a good suggestion, I actually had a backlight in the previous version, but I was getting a weird interaction with the wings in this version so I got rid of it for now.
When you say the cyan coloured ball, do you mean the "portal" in the background?
I don't know how well Reality/Luxrender works with point lights, I haven't used any with that platform but maybe this is a good time to experiment with it.
Thanks again.
oh you using Reality arr ok then you should be able to have the Cyan Ball (yes portal) ;) a light source itself giving softer light. Try both. ;) In Daz Studio I would use Area Lighting ]Tutorial Uber Area Lighting: The Basics
Here's another progress round, no post-work yet and not fully "baked" in Luxrender, but you can see where things are going.
I think the lighting is getting closer to what I want. The background is probably too bright, but balancing the lighting on her and on the background while still getting the right shadows is becoming more trouble than it is worth and can probably be addressed in post-work now.
I like the overall composition, I think the character is better emphasized than in the original and the slight adjustment of angle in this round helped a lot. I feel like the ground is missing something, the background elements are too boxy, it looks like she's standing in a shoebox diorama. I need props and vegetation on the ground, I think, and maybe some stones. Maybe some gentle deformation of the ground, or I can swap it out with a morphing ground prop.
There's some weirdness with the hair around the horns (smoothing modifier is pulling the scalp surface up and over the horns, I think) and the translucency of her hair on her right side doesn't look right, but I think both of those issues can be addressed in PS.
I really like the latest incarnation of this character and it certainly has impact :) A few thoughts regarding your background dilemma you could add in post work some glow and eerie lights rays out from the portal and a little ground mist which may help to add atmospherics and cloak the ground - I sometimes do this if I want to hide some shadows or soften the image. If you do go for further vegetation the trick I think will be making sure it doesn't detract from character keeping with the muted greens and browns. Thorns or brown bracken in the space by the hedge to the left of the character may also do the trick either way I don't think it needs much.
Hair and horns often interplay in strange and unusual ways, sometimes this can be fixed through adjusting the hair but more often its less hassle altering it in post work provided the distortion isn't too bad.
While I'm pondering the demoness, here's another work in progress.
In this case, I'm pretty happy with most of the background, particularly the ground and the blossoms, but not so happy with the character yet. The pose is okay but the expression needs tweaking. Clothing materials need a lot of work, I'm not sure I like the shape of the shirt, either. Lighting needs work, too, it's very bland at the moment.
The tree looks a little too angular and the bark texture isn't very realistic, either.
Anybody with any thoughts on how to improve the lighting here? Right now, it's basically an IBL sky with an added sun as a directional light. I struggle with outdoor lighting, you want it to look natural so you don't want other lights to compete with the sun or wash out the shadows, but her eyes are not catching the light. Maybe I need to add a small mesh light or spotlight from a direction similar to the sun, but a little lower to the ground so it lights the eyes a bit better.
This was rendered in Luxrender via Reality 2.5.
Thanks for any comments and suggestions.
I like the idea of portal light rays, if done right I could see that adding to the left-right dynamic, too.
I had forgotten that I wanted to add mist or fog to this, I agree that will help hide the ground texture a bit. I might try to do it in reality/luxrender this time but in previous experiments the rendered fog interacts poorly with the portal so most likely I'll do it in postwork. Now that the character is closer to the camera and we can't see her feet I think I can do a better job with it than in the original image where I had to postwork fog both in front of and behind the character.
I'll experiment with some muted vegetation, I might just keep it to some sporadic weeds. Your suggestion about the color scheme has given me the idea that the hedges themselves might look better here with brownish leaves instead of green.
Thanks for the input!
This is my latest, I also posted it in the User Gallery. I'm pretty happy with this one, there are a few details I'm noticing that could be improved, the rocks don't sit quite right, there's also a funny yellow hair along her hairline above her right ear that might need attention. Maybe her expression could use a little more urgency.
This was rendered with Reality 2.5 and LuxRender, with postwork for contrast, levels, etc. in Photoshop.
Any thoughts, criticisms, and suggestions for improvement are most welcome. Thanks for looking.
Pretty colors. I do think there is something wrong with my monitor because her face is washed out. When I have a chance I will look at the render on a different monitor. The metal armor looks fine.
The render in #17 http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/652306/ looks o.k. though.
Thanks for posting the artwork.
Thanks for the feedback!
This is the final version of the Demoness image I started this thread with, now titled The Demoness is Summoned. I posted it in the Gallery today as well. Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions, I think this image showcases the character much more effectively and the new composition makes for a stronger image overall.
There are some areas where I didn't do the greatest job in Photoshop, some minor discolorations that make some of the areas I edited a little too noticeable (although I know where they are so it might just be more obvious to me). But I think this will be the final version (for now).
She has evolved very well and really like the subtle mist you have introduced. Also just wanted to say the lady under the blossom tree is stunning :)
Thank you, and thanks for your suggestions along the way. It's funny about the mist, I wasn't going to bother, but then I added it at the last minute in photoshop, and it ended up making a huge difference in the atmosphere and overall effect of the image.
As for the blossom tree image, I am pretty happy with the character herself. Even the hair is close to what I wanted, I rarely have black haired characters because I can never get it to look right, I either end up with too little gloss, or some weird specular effect that looks like the character added grey highlights. But I'm pretty happy with her hair in this case.
I'm also really happy with the blossoms and grass, for once I'm very happy with the look of the ground in one of my renders.
But when I look at the image, my eyes go right to the tree trunk and her clothing, both of which I'm not happy with, so I definitely have to work on those items before I can finish that one up.