iClone

JoeMamma2000

Interesting...lately I'm seeing quite a few references here to "for use in iClone"

Now I know nothing about iClone, other than it seems to be something similar to Carrara, Poser, and DS. And it seems to be a fairly recent arrival compared to those others.

Can someone give me a short description of what it is, and whether it is competition to Carrara, and perhaps pulling a lot of potential Carrara customers away? Thanks.

Headwax

Wendy loves cats is your woman.

argus1000

In some ways, iClone is not as sophisticated as Carrara, in other ways, it is more. I just wish Daz developers were as innovative and energetic as iClone's. iClone 6 has just been released with a flurry of new features. They are, for example, way ahead of bullet physics with their new Physex engine for soft cloth. They also have a new unbiased physical renderer. Enough said. Just type inClone 6 in the Youtube search engine.

JoeMamma2000

Wow....that's interesting. Makes me wonder if DAZ missed the boat in deciding (if they did) to abandon the software market in favor of content. Somebody at iClone must have seen a market out there for a new Poser/D|S/Carrara type product. That's really interesting. Personally, I didn't think there was a market out there big enough for all those contenders. Especially since D|S is free (is it still?)

Very interesting.....

JoeMamma2000

Double wow....they even sell DAZ content on their website. Packages of DAZ characters...

Well ain't this interesting....from the Reallusion/iClone website:

"Reallusion's iClone product helps bring Genesis characters to life through dedicated real-time animation tools. By partnering together, our customers now have a powerful pipeline for creating stunning digital content as they combine DAZ 3D's popular 3D models with Reallusion's real-time animation tools."

Matt Wilburn, Chief Marketing Officer for DAZ 3D

So the iClone folks partnered with DAZ to include their Genesis and other figures for use in iClone, and they even sell them on their website.

bigh

don't know if have seen this ==

Enjoy this sneak peek video and check out the iClone6 website for more up to date information:
http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/14-ic6_preorder/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4coQNeloA

JoeMamma2000

I hope this doesn't start fueling any wild rumors about some kind of merger between Reallusion and DAZ or something. Just because they're partners, with DAZ providing content and Reallusion providing the software.

mrposer

Make sure your machine can run IClone6..... I can run Daz Studio, Poser, Carrara, and even Iclone 5......but my graphics card is not good enough for Iclone6 and after checking out the possible issues with power supply and cooling needs for a graphics card upgrade I will stick with IClone5 until I get the dough for a new computer.

JoeMamma2000

Yeah, after seeing the iClone 6 video it seems clear you have to have a SERIOUS graphics card to do all that realtime lighting and rendering stuff. But it looked pretty nice....

Hermit Crab

To begin my reply I want to stress that I am a very big fan of Carrara.

However, I bought iclone4 in time to qualify for version5 - the version which has just been replaced.

In the time I've used it, I found it fun, more than anything else, to play with. The characters are like older-style game-characters or like the Sims. You can plonk them into a scene and apply a canned animation (motion captured) to them very quickly - millions of dance and fight animations have been done like this. I won't go on about the features except to say that everything is geared towards quick animation. Excellent animation is more difficult - it's like the 80/20 rule.

Like the characters, terrains, trees and other vegetation were low-quality - but that's OK. I recall the Carrara manual advising that, for animation, extreme high quality may not be needed. Water is very good as are some of the instant special effects. Still renders (in iclone 5) were very much inferior to Carrara, Poser, DAZ.

Daz Genesis and other assets can be brought into iclone but lose in texture quality (I'm still talking about earlier versions - I can't speak for the latest). I use Carrara to create my own animated props, exported as .FBX files.

I bought Iclone as a fun, prototyping tool for animation but I admit to being an enthusiastic member of the Reallusion forums where I mention plans to create something worthwhile.

Although I own the new version, I wont be able to upgrade my computer to use it and am in no hurry either.

I genuinely want to get more out of Carrara by learning more about it and would never wish to drop it. And I would hope many more people would continue to buy it. But, like others, I enjoy using iclone and will go from one software to the other to get maximum enjoyment from my hobby.

EDITED for grammar.

JoeMamma2000

Thanks Marcus...that's interesting.

Honestly, I'm not really clear on who the big market is for software like DAZ Studio, Carrara, Poser, and iClone. Yeah, it's hobbyists who want to generate images of 3D characters and don't want to pay a lot of money for the software or content, but more than that I'm really not too sure.

Seems like iClone is geared towards the hobbyist who wants to do quick animations, and is willing to pay less than $200 for the software and some content. But it also seems like they are progressing to make iClone more and more feature-rich with higher end features like cloth and rendering engines and real time visualizations.

But DAZ Studio is geared towards the hobbyist who is enticed by free software, and is willing to spend money on content. And for the most part, someone who isn't going to generate a lot of his own content, since Studio doesn't have any modelling features. Though they could probably do it in Hex, but I assume that's probably a hassle many aren't willing to deal with.

So it seems like the iClone folks are seeing a software market that wants to pay for a higher end software (though not very much), and they are willing to serve it, while DAZ decided not to serve that market. Well, they do provide Carrara for about the same cost as iClone (I think...), but aren't actively supporting it.

And I assume that the iClone folks aren't real happy having a free competitor in DAZ Studio out there.

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out. That's a pretty big partnership if you allow another company to sell your products like that. And clearly DAZ must be providing some serious support to ensure that their content can be used in iClone.

Like I say, very interesting....

Hermit Crab

Hi Joe

Judging from the users who inhabit the iclone forums, who are only a sub-set of the total users, there doesn't seem to be any divide in loyalty between DAZ and Reallusion.

Many iclone users are seriously into film-making. Some use it for pre-viz for independant films, etc. Others see it as a useful means of getting their written works into film and others are keen to create tales to tell because they have the software for doing so.

These users are of the same mind-set as the animators here at DAZ - they may study cinema techniques, camera angles, lighting and other dramatic effects that those (such as me) take for granted as viewers/consumers. And of course some animators here have taken to using iclone along with DAZ programs.

When Genesis was first enabled to work in iclone, Reallusion described the DAZ figures as 'exquisite'. They certainly far surpassed Reallusion's own figures in quality. But the workflow for using them means that they need to be clothed before bringing them over - DAZ clothing doesn't get stored ready for use in a library within iclone the way it does in Poser, Studio and Carrara. Other assets such as buildings and other props can be imported and stored ready to be used in scenes once they have been converted in a separate program (also needed to import Genesis).

Many iclone users aren't too interested in 3d techniques overall. Those users are happy to buy any props required and just get on with film-making just as some DAZ Studio users only use bought content for amazing renders. The native iclone characters use 'clone-cloth' which is a range of clothing shapes which become a built-in part of the avatar. A long dress would resemble a cone, for example, Sections of the cloth are made invisible by painting out those areas on a template which launches in a paint package. So the user can make fairly effective but somewhat primitive clothing. (to make shorts, the lower part of the trousers are made invisible) This feature is one reason for me regarding iclone as a prototyping program.

I don't get the impression that long-term iclone users have any desire to move to other software but a good many newcomers may have used Studio or Poser. Some show interest in Carrara or Blender as a means of creating more for themselves but I don't think iclone's success is really a threat to DAZ or the fact that DAZ is free is a threat to Reallusion. I visit one Poser forum rather infrequently but have not seen iclone mentioned even once. I think different markets exist. In particular, Reallusion sells 'construction kits' for making cartoon characters and toon monsters - which I don't see as a market being emphasised by DAZ.

It is true that the new version of iclone has launched from the rooftops and is aiming very high indeed. But unlike Carrara, it isn't the place to create new things. The new clothing system is now well in advance of the versions up till now which I described above. It is now possible to apply a grey-scale gradient to the clothing (which governs flexibility) and it becomes dynamic in real time. The new figures have adjustable PhysX collision regions built-in. Who knows, it's always possible that Reallusion may not rely so much on Genesis if they continue to develop their own characters?

Iclone seems to be highly thought of by games and app developers, such as those who use Unity. The pipeline for exporting to other software is very costly, however.

Mythmaker

I have used Iclone and Daz Studio extensively, researched Poser and bought Carrara recently. I’m still looking at Iclone 6 development with interest. Here’s my take on where the user base overlaps and differs, and an overview on which way the wind blows…

Iclone is a game style WYSIWYG video maker targeted at novice to intermediate users with little interest/no talent in custom 3D models. Fun GUI, accessible UI, innovative approach to animation are among Iclone’s strengths. But rhose wishing to use it for professional application will eventually bump into fundamental weaknesses like lack of in-house modelling capability, import export tedium via 3dxchange, and too-many-add-ons. That’s because its business model is selling content and add-ons, just like Daz Studio.

Major difference: DS places more focus on still renders aesthetic quality and less on its animation muscles, while Iclone more focus on real-time animation physics bells and whistles.

Daz Studio is a character generating still image renderer targeted at intermediate users, mostly with little interest in animation or physics. Character customization and posing setup are its greatest strengths. Some entry-level modelling and rigging skill is required to become advanced hobbyists.

So...are they toys or pro tools?

No matter how diehard fanatics of either tools claim, bottomline is, no talented or pro users would find either DS or Iclone sufficient as a standalone professional tool even with 10X content-buying budget. It is possible to use DS and Iclone professionally - BUT ONLY when paired with external modelling/ rigging applications. Daz Studio wins hands down in this department, with direct Hexagon and Zbrush bridge and standard import export workflow. Most Iclone users will concur that Iclone’s Archilles heel is its dependency on 3DXchange.

So... will the hotter sexier Iclone6 be a threat to Daz?

DS users who graduated from stills to animation will hit a wall eventually, like I have. Will they be happier with Iclone6? IF they could live with far fewer character/ clothing/ prop customization or are prepared to deal with super cumbersome import export workflow. With Indigo, IC6 has caught up with DS in beauty shots, yet their batch queue and video output remain questionable.

Also, a myth is, Iclone is toy-like so it is cheaper than DS. Not true at all. For hobbyists, both are on par, easily 4-figure toy budget annually. For pros or wannabe-pros, Iclone+3dxPipeline+basic-add-ons starts at $600+++ to be semi-useful, and that's before any content buying budget.

As is, Daz user who will find Iclone5/6 "usable" are pure hobbyists with a lot of play time and toy budget.

Features wise, Carrara is actually Iclone (animation & physics) + Daz Studio (custom character & render quality) + A Whole Lot More (modelling etc). On its own, a Carrara user with talent and patience can create professional game cinematics quality CGI movies using Carrara alone, with far greater freedom to customize scenes from the smallest custom plants to an entire city.

The real question for a typical modelling-capable 3D moviemaker like me is, can IClone6 overtake Carrara as an animation rendering application?

I’ve just gone through the latest Iclone6 videos. Looks like they keep stealing the best of DS and Carrara and making them more intuitive and fun to use. The custom UI update and soft cloth physics weight map implementation are quite awesome. Real-time preview render is almost UE4 quality now. Really liking their tight seamless Indigo material and lighting translation too. But I’m not moving base yet - they still don’t have 3D mouse nor GoZ, and 3DXchange6 has no launch date…

But yes, at the rate it is improving, IClone6 with direct applink to modelling tools could be a serious threat not just to Daz Studio but to Carrara.

Of course, Carrara has nothing to worry about if it also takes on the best old and new features of Iclone! After all, Carrara’s weaknesses are far less fundamental. All it takes for the unjustly neglected Carrara scene to be excited is some major custom UI update, more intuitive weight map painting, tighter Genesis integration, seamless native light and material translation to external renderers, some Daz Studio gems such as native real-time preview render, vegetation/instances paint brushes, most requested Iclone feature like 3D mouse… In a few strokes, Carrara could still show Iclone who is the Real Deal in this corner of 3D universe.

This is an interesting time for this scene. I’m willing to invest time and money on one good solid tool with a few stable add-ons. I’m definitely done with managing crippled mother tool with split-off father tool and a dozen schizo child tools. Whichever party that integrates itself better internally AND externally with standard industry applications will be the long-term winner for me.

JoeMamma2000

Wow, Mythmaker, you should get some kind of award for that in-depth and intelligent analysis. Excellent !! Thanks. It helps me understand the issues a whole lot better.

Mythmaker

Aww thanks for the nomination. I was just opining long-winded-ly as usual...but glad you find the big pic useful! Happy new year!

bigh

" Of course, Carrara has nothing to worry about if it also takes on the best old and new features of Iclone! After all, Carrara’s weaknesses are far less fundamental. All it takes for the unjustly neglected Carrara scene to be excited is some major custom UI update, more intuitive weight map painting, tighter Genesis integration, seamless native light and material translation to external renderers, some Daz Studio gems such as native real-time preview render, vegetation/instances paint brushes, most requested Iclone feature like 3D mouse… In a few strokes, Carrara could still show Iclone who is the Real Deal in this corner of 3D universe. "

so true .
you did good .
except you forgot Carrara needs- iprop and collision detection also .

Mythmaker

bigh said:

except you forgot Carrara needs- iprop and collision detection also .

You're right I forgot about that among other things...

After watching more ic6 videos I admit I do miss the right click context menu on everything in Iclone. Set as Terrain, Persona... Even the Scene tab now has pro-style multiple icons per track for fast access to frequent used items. So I feel a need to remind myself why I invested in Carrara in the first place...

I moved here from Iclone and DS mainly for Carrara's custom dynamic hair and natural world. And as off today...

Carrara wins over Iclone-Pipeline = native custom dynamic hair, custom dynamic procedural plants, GI, standard import/export...

Iclone6 wins over Carrara = SUPER RESPONSIVE Real-Time preview render of everything dynamic - hair, clothes, trees, better quality real-time shadows, reflection, transparency & AO...

I don't chase photorealism and place artistic workflow as No.1 priority. So for me in January 2015, it is between
1. workflow aided by instant visual feedback VS
2. workflow aided by custom hair/ plants where I animate

As is, no Carrara IPR for anything, dynamic or not. Octane or LuxCore WIP don't deal with Carrara dynamic hair. Carrara's Octane doesn't do nested instances.

So it seems, as of now, Iclone remains a strong contender as an middleware animation renderer even for an avid modeller standalone-tool fanatic like myself.

Iclone6 is of course still buggy but is also known for substantial patching and version update. But I'm still betting on Carrara's explosive potential as a Maya Lt killer...

Objectively, even renovated DS cannot stand up to IC6 now for stills rendering workflow involving dynamic hair and clothes. Only Carrara has the real muscles in retaining both Daz3D beauty shots and animation crowd. But Carrara needs to move onto next gear - ASAP. Starting with, perhaps, fixing the 3 most obviously super-dated Carrara areas:

- DS style interactive preview render of all dynamic features + aux viewport
- DS style custom UI including custom script + custom icons
- DS style 3D mouse + new game style navigation options