Carrara and normal maps?
wscottart
Posts: 442
So I discovered over in PoserPro 2014 you can plug normal maps into the gradient bump node, channel or whatever they call it. So then I travel over to Carrara curious to see whats available to us. Now Im just curious how would we plug a normal map into Carrara? Could we just plug it in to the bump channel? Would it have the same effects as normal maps in other applications?
Not a pro here, just curious and experimental.
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Guess I should have poked around just a little more , as I now see the normal map channel. One of those that channels that are seldom used so one forgets they are even there.
There are several ways to get normal maps into Carrara.
The one you found is in the bump category under normal and also found in all the other categories that support texture maps (see the image).
One can also get a normal map on some type of files where the normal map is "baked" into the object or comes as an attached normal file separately.
The other way is to purchase Inagoni's Baker which helps Carrara users who have versions that don't have the normal category. Baker does more than normal, but it will make a map for the normal or diffuse, bump, lighting and etc for use in Carrara or for export.
My very very fuzzy recollection was there was discussion a long time ago about how Carrara handles normal maps, and I recall the discussion seemed to point to there being a problem. Can't recall exactly what it was, but I think it was generally agreed that Carrara wasn't really handling normal maps internally the way one might expect, and you'd be better off with bump maps.
Maybe someone remembers better than me, but I'd just caution you to investigate a bit if you find it isn't doing what you might expect.
Are you maybe thinking of how Carrara handles displacement? I recall many threads about the differences in how well (or not) Carrara handles it as opposed to Studio and maybe some other apps.
That's possible....this was maybe 3 or 4 years ago, probably back in the old forum days. I'm pretty sure there was a lot of discussion as to just what a normal map is, and I did my usual long boring pontificating about that. And then one of the big name PA's (I forget who...) had done some testing on normal maps and found that there was a problem in the Carrara implementation.
I just did a search, and back in 2012 I made a post in a thread saying that there was discussion about normal maps having a problem and you're better off with bump maps. But prior to that is when the old forum went away, so it was probably an old forum discussion.
Anyway, just something to keep in mind...
I think the issue had something to do with Carrara's scaling of the maps, and that the actual effect of a normal map in a Carrara render was very small compared to what it should be. I dunno, something like that....
That does seem to ring a bell now that you mention it.
Perhaps there was a fix in C8.5? I haven't heard much discussion about any issues lately, but I'm not sure who uses them here.
Here is a youtube video that describes the use of normal maps in Carrara from a link from carraracafe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xocEZSTRE
Looked like Carrara handled the Normal maps in the video just fine. Perhaps the original issue was with poor Normal maps, or ignorance on how to properly use them? Carrara was first able to use Normal maps starting with C8, so if the threads talking about Normal maps were older, they may have been when the feature was first introduced. Of course if there was an issue with them, one of the updates, such as C8.1 could have provided a fix.
The most common reason I use normal maps is when I have a very high resolution mesh (1 million or more polygons) and want to bring it into another program like Carrara or Lightwave where it doesn't cause the program to freeze up and choke from memory issues.
Once the mesh is UV mapped I can use Zbrush or 3DCoat to make a lower resolution mesh and then export that mesh out with the UV, Texture and Normal map to the receiving software.
That way, I can get highly detailed mesh with a few thousand polys that is render friendly instead of a mesh that is millions of polys that will cause the software to crash.
Game creators use this trick all the time to make smaller sized meshes.
Exactly the reasons I had read about when Carrara introduced it. It's good to know that it is utilized. I don't see it mentioned often, so I wasn't sure it was one of those under utilized features.
I think the issues that were raised (darn, I wish I could recall which PA did the testing and raised the issue...not Stonemason, but one of the big names...) were raised around 2012, and C8 was released in 2010. C8.5 was released in 2013, so this was probably right in between C8 and C8.5.
So yeah, maybe whatever it was got fixed in C8.5.
However, I didn't look at the referenced video, but if the normal maps are "working" there, and it was done in 2010 (right after C8 was released) according to the YouTube entry, I'm scratching my head.
Hmmm.....
And I guess the old forum archives are gone now so we can never find that old thread?
I think the issues that were raised (darn, I wish I could recall which PA did the testing and raised the issue...not Stonemason, but one of the big names...) were raised around 2012, and C8 was released in 2010. C8.5 was released in 2013, so this was probably right in between C8 and C8.5.
So yeah, maybe whatever it was got fixed in C8.5.
However, I didn't look at the referenced video, but if the normal maps are "working" there, and it was done in 2010 (right after C8 was released) according to the YouTube entry, I'm scratching my head.
Hmmm.....
And I guess the old forum archives are gone now so we can never find that old thread?
Was that the one with the "carving" in some kind of door on in an asian inspired scene?
Are you thinking this blog entry?
https://karl3d.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/ds-displacement-in-carrara-8/
I remember this discussion.
Normal maps have worked well in Carrara since inception - it was the quality of the maps which were the problem. XNormal generates a really good map from a high-poly mesh. Gimp's maps generated from photographs weren't that good - not much of an improvement over bump. Don't know how well Photoshop's plugin did.
Since then, Gimp has a new plugin named Insane Bump, which is every bit as good as Crazy Bump and generates really good maps from photographs, which gives really good definition in Carrara.
Yup! That would be it!
Ahhh, okay...Age of Armour was the PA I was thinking of. But the thread discussed in this blog isn't available since the server is dead now, huh? Anyway, I guess it was "garbage in, garbage out".
And the guy who brought up this issue just now wasted all of our time, huh? :)
Oh, wait...that was me... :) :)
Sorry. :)
well I certainly hope I did'nt waste your time I actually didn't know anything about normal maps till a few days ago, and that lead me on quick whirlwind tour to learn about them. I am awed by the way you guys remember things and catlogue them though. I can barely remember what I was working on two minutes ago ;-) At any rate I found an application called normalmappr for mac that converts images to normal maps. So far they look pretty descent in Carrara, and a little less impressive (subtle) in Poser. Still might be interesting to use combinations of bumps and normals.