The best brush does not make the best art
starboard
Posts: 452
Being new to the forum I can't help but notice the concern over how imperative it is for the release of Carrara 9. I bought Carrara for what it can do and not for what it might do. I also believe that my efforts in 3d will have far more to do with the story than with the subtleties of the image. The software and hardware we use are just the tools with which we shape the concept or story. The biggest Holiywood budget with legions of 3D artists, with eye stunning effects, will not save a movie with a poor or non-existent story. However, for Carrara users there is another aspect concerning the tools we use that is worth considering. For like it or not, with regard to the other programs we use, we are being left behind as the plane leaves the runway.
1. Almost all of the users of Carrara will be producing either stills for print or video for the web. This means the images will probably be with a max of probably around1440x720. A few of us may be making some footage for commercial TV but most of us are aiming at an online audience. It is my understanding that most of the advances in 3D and video are in the 4k and up in pixel count. Apple's new Final Cut Pro and the high end suites can edit these huge images. The upper end 3D programs are designed for this and this is there clientele. So what has this to do with us...Thats the point nothing. Non of us will be making 4k 3D images even if we had a render farm. And even then we would have no where to show it - unless you want to rent a local theater.
2. Another aspect of this is how the software is changing. We all use say Photoshop, or After Effects to hone our output from Carrara. Adobe products is now only available on the cloud. You don't own a copy of photoshop anymore, you rent it. And when you stop paying the rent..surprise, This is very clever business concept for Adobe, it avoids piracy, and it gives a steady revenue flow. However, I have for a number of reasons not bought into the cloud. Again the plane has left the runway and I am still at the gate. I am still using PS 7 on one computer and CS2 on the other. In other words I won't be getting an upgrade..Do I mend - not at all. These products which I own can handle all the manipulation I need on a still image and video. If you think that I am an anachronism - your right - but I am not alone. Last time I checked a used version of FCP that still plays on an older G5 on E-Bay was going for about a $1,000. It never sold for that new and a new version of FCP that only plays on the latest Mac sells for around $400, if I remember correctly. I suspect that there is quite a used market for older Adobe products, that you can own yourself, though I have not checked on this. The point of all this is that, Apple has left me behind, Adobe has left me behind, of all my programs only Carrara is up to date. And I would really be interested in those that post if you could put down the version of Photoshop / After Effects/etc. Editing program/ that your using. I have this feeling that I am not alone in this. Also if you are using the cloud - do you like it ?
My conclusion is this, I have a hard time complaining about Carrara and new updates when all my other software is so far behind the cutting edge. But does it really matter. The images I make for the web are well within the capabilities of the version of these programs that I have. My success or failure will depend on my creativity - and only secondary on my tools. The best brush does not make the best art.
Anyway, just some random thoughts...Let me know your version of PS, etc. it ought to be interesting.
Starboardtack
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I wont buy into the "Cloud" either. Not ever!
I felt that way as well, why pay lots of $$$ to basically rent the software?
I owned CS4, and when it came time to upgrade to CS6, Adobe was offering a pittance toward an upgrade for my version. So I opted for the cloud.
So averaged over time, I could pay them less money and use newer versions of ALL their programs. That seemed to be a no brainer. If I want or need to install my old CS4 at some point in the future, I can still do that and drop the Cloud.
EDIT just want to add that I've tried open source or less expensive options to the Adobe apps. There is some functionality that you cannot get outside of Adobe, especially with Acrobat. For example, while there are many 3rd party apps that will generate PDF files and create forms, the Document Rights Management functions can only be set inside Acrobat Pro.
Also, support for plugins made for Adobe apps is pretty limited. So if you have a specific need for a plugin and you are using a non adobe app, there's a high probability that you can't use it.
I don't have any expensive software (except for Octane Render), so I am able to use the latest versions of almost all of them. I never could afford/justify the prices Adobe charges, so I use Gimp and Inkcscape instead of Photoshop and Illustrator. They are free, and do everything I need to do (I do have an Photoshop CS2 that I got for free, but only use it to open and convert the occasional .psd that Gimp can't open for use in Gimp). I also have Project DogWaffle Howler 8.2 which I got for free
For 3d software I use pretty much the latest version of everything, because it's all relatively inexpensive or free, except for Octane (my one big ticket item). The list includes Carrara 8.5, DS 4.7, Poser Pro 2014, Hexagon 2.5, Blacksmith 3D 6, LuxRender 1.4, Octane 2.1, and I'm trying to learn Blender. Oh, I also have the educational version of Maya 2015 (I actually find it fairly intuitive), and am looking forward to using the free version of PRMan with Maya when it's released (hopefully this month).
I use Adobe products and am pretty satisfied, it's just expensive.
But you can do some amazing stuff. For example yesterday I had to fix some pokethrough. I was able to open up the files and edit manually rather quickly and this saved alot of time. Sometimes it's worth it to spend the $$.
If I had zero budget I would use Blackmagic Fusion; now free; has a deeper interface, better particles and titling. But another learning curve, trail period before it's worthwhile, so this is a downside...I'd check that out if I were you.
cheers
+many ;)
I know it is stable door, and horses, but after Adobe got their site (and customer details I believe) hacked, there is really no way I would ever consider doing anything with the cloud, not that I wold have done beforehand!
I used to say that, but these days, bottom line is king. For someone like me who's out of work and hard up, there's no way on earth I could justify £600 up front for CS6 (or £800 for Lightwave...). But £8 a month...? It'll take 6 years to spend the equivalent money, and I'm bound to be back in work by then!
msteaka, interesting point you raise. Though I'm not sure I understand exactly what point you're making.... :)
I guess you're saying don't complain about not having an up-to-date, full featured tool in Carrara, because you can still make great art with the limited toolset? And just be glad it's not being offered via the cloud, like other software?
While I agree to some extent with the toolset point, I think one aspect you might not be considering are the characteristics and interests of the majority of Carrara users. I've learned that what many users tend to be interested in and enjoy is using the software, figuring out how to do stuff with it, and just producing renders for personal enjoyment.
In general, I don't think the goal for most users is creating great art or telling a great story like you suggest. I think few users produce renders with the intent of showing to others, or telling other viewers a story. Mostly I think it's for personal enjoyment. Not all, but clearly most.
So having software with all the latest features and being able to do cool stuff with it for personal enjoyment is, I think, what drives most users here. And I also think that having the latest features isn't necessarily that critical, it's having regular updates and betas that folks can explore and play with for personal enjoyment.
So I *think* for many here, having C9 is important because it's something new to play with and enjoy.
And yeah, the whole "cloud" thing....not interested. :) :) ...gimme my software on a DVD, or let me download an executable and I'm happy.
Well... that was part of their intention but I'm happy to say, it doesn't avoid it at all.
Going back to the actual thread title, and expanding on it with my own analogy:
The paint doesn't care if it was applied to the canvas with an expensive imported camel hair brush, or a cheap synthetic fiber brush. The viewer of the painting doesn't care if the paints were bought from an art supply company or Wal-Mart. If the piece is good and makes the artist and those that view it feel something, then who cares?
That's all very true. However, in visual effects, we're talking software, and good software gives you the benefit of being able to paint your painting quicker and better than software that's not quite as good.
For example, let's say you want to make a render of a raging forest fire. If your software can generate/simulate fire and smoke that is virtually undetectable as computer generated, and can be done with the click of a button, then that might be preferable to an old, outdated software that renders/simulates "fire" as nothing more than an orange splotch. That's why some might be looking for certain features and improvements.
But as you say, in the end, the quality of the image you generate, in terms of appreciation by others, is mostly a function of the artist who is at the helm, no matter what the tools...a chisel, a brush, or some WalMart paint. :)
That's all very true. However, in visual effects, we're talking software, and good software gives you the benefit of being able to paint your painting quicker and better than software that's not quite as good.
For example, let's say you want to make a render of a raging forest fire. If your software can generate/simulate fire and smoke that is virtually undetectable as computer generated, and can be done with the click of a button, then that might be preferable to an old, outdated software that renders/simulates "fire" as nothing more than an orange splotch. That's why some might be looking for certain features and improvements.
But as you say, in the end, the quality of the image you generate, in terms of appreciation by others, is mostly a function of the artist who is at the helm, no matter what the tools...a chisel, a brush, or some WalMart paint. :)
Sure. If your brush can't handle your paint, then you need another brush. I know that back in the day, when I used to paint, I had many different brushes. Some were for broad strokes, others for detail work.
The same with your analogy for the digital forest fire. The right tool for the job and all that. Where your analogy falls a bit short is, "with the click of button." I haven't used the fluid sims in Blender, but I have watched some tutorials and it is not as simple as all that. Like everything, it tales practice. I couldn't just jump into Blender and make a convincing forest fire- at least not right away.
Well, the analogy wasn't intended to be a specific Blender vs. Carrara, but just a general concept. Of course there is no "one click", but the idea was that it's often desirable to gravitate to software that might do it with higher quality and quicker, that's all.
Point taken.
I apologize for being so late responding..I had a dental appointment and from there things just got worse.
The point I was trying to make is that software such as photoshop, After Effects, etc. have reached a plateau of gradual rise in development some years ago. Of course the new software is better and can do more, but the improvements are more or less incremental. CS2, CS3 ..4 etc are fine software and are still highly effective and can serve the needs of the majority of people who still use it. Most, you might say almost all users of Photoshop come nowhere near using its full capacity. Most don't go beyond the clone tool, brushes, paths, filters and color adjustment etc. the basics. I include myself in this group. In other words CS2- CS4 serve their needs and they really have no economic reason to go further. I put up this post to more or less find out how many others out there are quite content with older versions of Adobe products. For power users of PS of course that is a different story - they are the magicians of the still image and need every trick. I suspect that Adobe's present marketing strategy shows an awareness of this problem of "how do you keep em buying updates" and how do you prevent piracy. I have not been following Adobe stock, but they just might be doing better than ever. And I expect there is a day in my future when I will have to join the cloud..but not yet.
The reason I mentioned the 4k software and hardware is that there appears to be a growing chasm between the amateur video/3D users needs and the professionals using this huge pixel crunching demanding format. I would imagine that the average Carrara user will not be rendering anything over what can be put on u-tube , or like JoeMamma2000 said for their personal use. In other words we can survive for quite a while using the equipment and software that we have at present.
Of courseI I will be very pleased with Carrara update, but like I said, I bought the software for what it can do now..and in my estimation that is a lot...If I ever learn to use even half of it.
Starboardtack
That's an interesting point about software reaching a plateau. Definitely true in some cases. Heck, look at Windows. How difficult must it be to keep people buying new versions of Windows, and coming up with new "features" and convincing everyone they need those new features even though they mostly couldn't care less? For me, they could have halted development of windows 10 years ago, and just kept it on life support and I'd be happy. Windows 8? Come on, it's a bunch of stuff we don't need or want, but Microsoft needs to keep interest so they change stuff we don't want or need to be changed.
So yeah, sometimes a plateau is a good thing. But not with Carrara, IMO.. :)
Tim A and cdordoni.
After reading your posts, I began to realize that if I did not have the software already, it makes sense to buy into the cloud. At present its a bout $30 a month to use it here in eagle land. Thats $360 per year. To buy it ( I was wrong. I went to the Adobe site, and you can buy it - though not recommended,. I know I looked into this about a year ago and I almost certain that at that time you could not buy it) Perhaps Adobe is responding to some complaints. Either way, if you do not have the software already, or you get a conversion offer that you can't really refuse - then it makes sense. However, there is one thought. If you create files on the cloud using the latest Adobe program, will you be able to open those files with CS4..I doubt it. I don't think that there is any going back.
Starboardtack.
200% agree no cloud for me. The cloud is nothing but an information harvester. You put your stuff up there and have a problem I will bet, if you read your agreement you will learn your information is their information.
I too did the adobe creative suite with cloud when it was first released. I knew I needed to update my CS4, but it was so expensive.
Adobe made me a super price deal at $30 per month for one year.
So... I did the Adobe contract.
Adobe provided good service with updates and like Adobe...they aggravated the heck out of me updating things.
The adobe reader and the video player thing have driven me nuts since broadband took over the web.
Anyway, at the end of my contract Adobe carried me for an extra 2 months and didn't agree to any new terms or contract. I was getting nothing from them so I thought everything was OK. Nope, not a chance. They went up on the monthly charge to $50 per month . My understanding was the contract was only for one year. I never logged on or used the service after the term was over. I found they had renewed without my authority after I got my CC statement. I started writing emails to stop the service. No repy of any consequence. Basically, I felt like I was being stonewalled. Finally after the second $50 charge on my CC I got someone on the phone. I got stalloed there as well...supervisor didn't return my calls.
Finally, I got Adobe to agree to remove $50 of the $100. I realize I should have gone on with it and maybe contacted my credit card company. You why not? I want to remember those people that way. I don't ever want to forget what a bunch of jerks they really are.
Yes, I still have my CS4 and I use it. Outdated, maybe so...but it still works. When it becomes so outdated I can't use it by then I will have to find something very close or as good as Photoshop. That $50 they took from me is going to motivate me to never buy anything from Adobe. I would seem to me they would recognize the value of anyone who previously bought a very expensive CS4 studio package from them and used their service for one year would not be someone to poop on.
Rampart11,
You are giving me brain whiplash. I was beginning to think that maybe the cloud was not a bad idea....Now I'm grabbing my sleeping bag and heading for the snow country..What an experience. I was wondering about that $30 a month..of course its introductory..Why am I not surprised. Hijacking your credit card number and upping the fee was probably a good idea to some bright young executive.
Would you mind answering a question about the Cloud.. When you drop out of it are you cut off totally from your files you created on their server. Also, when / if you get back the files you created with the latest software, and you no longer have that latest version to use, is there any way you can open those files. Of course the files or projects you created can be kept on your own hard drive..but then, again, how could you open them without the program that created them... Geez, they really have got you. Thanks Rampart11, you have really got me thinking.
By the way, you will probably run into problems if you have to change computers. My old G5 died and I bought a "new" old mack..same year, processor, etc. I took the old hard drives from the defunct G5 and put them in the new machine. All my software was on these hard drives. When I tried to boot up everything worked except the Adobe software. A warning popped up which said I had to go to the Adobe site and confirm my ownership/ serial number. Fair enough, they did not know whether I had not stole the software or not. However when I got to the Adobe site, they said that they were no longer offering that service for (CS2). However after more searching I was able to find that apparently somebody had brought a lawsuit against Adobe for not supplying this service. For without the Adobe OK, ing the serial number they were in a sense removing the right for you to operate the software which you had paid. There is no time limit on how long you can use the software. Adobe solved this problem by, for a limited time, anybody who had CS2, could download CS2 that no longer needed a serial number for operation. In other words they were casting CS2 adrift. I was able to download the CS2 suite - so I am set for quite awhile..unless its boobytrapped in some other way - your getting me worried. Anybody that has CS2, you might want to check to see if this transitional site is still active. I am mentioning this as CS4 in Adobe's eyes should just go away. They will probably offer a transitional method for awhile also.
Starboardtack
I steadily moved my files off the cloud as I went along with the Adobe cloud thing. I really didn't use it except for WIP and then I wiped as I went more or less.
Yes, I did have problems getting my CS4 install thing worked out with Adobe after I went off the cloud. I spend over an hour on the phone talking to them, before I got it all worked out. I had all my original purchase paperwork at hand when I went through it. I think it resolved with something like I can install it on one more computer I own or some nonsense or other.
It was some dude in India that helped me. He really wasn't a bad sort. I could at least understand him better than most.
You should always protect your data and files. Your data is never your own unless you have complete control of it.
Who knows what some ferret in China or other foreign country is up to.
I built a website for a client and a person from an Eastern European country used the website contact page to thank the site owner for putting up the nice pictures he just downloaded. I tried to get the site owner to at least watermark the pictures. She was adamant about "no one would steal her pictures". There are people that want what you have somewhere regardless of how you think of it.
Facebook, Twitter, Google+ all are harvesting information and they will share it for money and gratis to some interests. I don't care how much social might help me it can hurt me more. I don't do anything dishonest or anything like that, but you never know how people interpret your information or discussions.
I'm not fearful or worried about sharing information, or I wouldn't use forums like this. If this forums was noted, as facebook or Google for harvesting information I would not participate. No sense to stick your hand in the fire when you know it can burn you and probably will.
Thanks Rampart11
As far as data I do the best I can, but there is too much about the internet that I don't understand to be confident. I have avoided Facebook, etc..just don't have time for them. As far as being ripped off from a website, etc, I think all we can do is cross our fingers and whistle our way through the graveyard.
Thanks for the information.
Its late and I am heading for bed,
Starboardtack
Just due to necessity, I've kept my software expenses at a very low level, and have been very happy with my choices so far. Video Studio Pro was just upgraded to X7, which has a new 64 bit architecture. I got it when I was shopping for PaintShop Pro, as my lower cost PS-style image editor. Corel was offering (and still do) a bundle of getting VSP along with it for a very nice price, so I got it, even though I already own Sony Movie HD (low-end home version of Vegas).
Project Dogwaffle, as you may already have read, has really been grabbing me. It sports a very low cost and is being developed by a single author. But that author really knows his stuff about painting, animation, and special effects, so his dog-based animation-feature-rich painter is just amazingly cool! Through Dogwaffle, I'm loving my choice to stay low-budget. It's a different way to use software to make art, for sure. I couldn't just go in and use what I've learned about PS in it and get what I wanted out of it. But once you learn how to work with it, which really is fun, it's amazing what can be done with it - especially for a single-person movie house.
Now that I've upgraded my Corel Video Studio to the Pro X7 Ultimate package, I'm starting to discover more about the software - things that have already been there along with the new. Between this and my Sony Movie HD Platinum, I feel confident in learning my way into getting better results in my final production that I was after in the first place - which was just going to be some fun 3D skits. But it has grown so much more as I've collected just my few lower priced, but excellent software. Dogwaffle Howler has been a huge boon in that department, as I can get right into my individual animation clips and really work them. I could even build and add my own animated 3d scenery using Howler if I wanted to! I find it to be a perfect fit with my Carrara animation endeavors. Then I stitch it all together with Sony and Corel.
My Sony Platinum package (version 12 then, I believe) came with Sound Forge and DVD architect as well. I also picked up MAGIX Music Maker and a whole bunch of the full license loops and sounds. But it's starting to look like I'll be recording a lot of my own music to make the better fit with the action (or lack thereof) of the piece. I spent a bit of time looking at options, and luckily this wonderful app is meeting my musical needs just fine.
So I've been aptly able to keep a tiny budget and just leave most of the magic for me to figure out on my own, using the tools that I have... and I love it! Now if only I could get a few years of paid vacation! Hey... what an idea!
(images from some of the latest improvements added to Howler - which Dan made the landscapes from scratch within - the other is the Cloud Modeler particles system that was just added)
Can I nominate this for greatest quote ever? I 100% agree!
Can I nominate this for greatest quote ever? I 100% agree!I second the nomination! 100% :ahhh:
I don't create files on the cloud, and especially not Adobe's cloud. All my work is stored locally, both on my Mac and a NAS server. I use Dropbox when I want to exchange data between remote machines or people. But that's never the only place anything is stored.
I've got several other apps that can read psd files (they are a standard after all), and I've had no trouble reading anything I've created with cc.
There's always risks and worries about using cloud services (remember the selfies scandal last summer?), but since I'm neither famous nor pretty, I have no worries on that score ;)
In one of my other lives I write stories, set in a distant future where there's no oil or electricity (so no computers), and the 21st century is referred to as the 'Dark ages' because they stored all their knowledge in clouds, and when they blew away, everything they knew or did was lost.
BTW, my bank can't even give me details about a transaction from just a year ago. That's how crap their cloud archive is.
I know that there are a number of free or cheap alternatives to Photoshop (I use an old version of Photoshop CS2 by the way, does everything I need, and I haven't exhausted the possibilities of it). But are there any similar alternatives to After Effects that people know of or use?
Hitfilm 3 Pro
Not quite comparable with AE, but has lot of possibilities.
Thanks - I'll take a look.
The Adobe suite between CS2 and now isn't that dramatically different...except for After Effects.
AE on the cloud and even CS4 -- they're like different programs. AE is constantly evolving and transforming and improving. AE alone is worth the price of admission IMO.
The computer I animate on actually runs CS4 because the adobe suite on the cloud actually REMOVED some features I preferred (for instance, you can no longer drop SWF files directly into Premiere Pro). I spend most of my PS and Flash time in CS4, split my Premiere time between both, and spend 100% of my after effects time in the latest version.