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The OP appears to be asking for a discussion on compositing methods, albeit by a circuitous use of poking fun at it to get it started. Please stay on topic and be civil. We request that participants adhere to bullet point#2 in the forum ToS which says Criticism should be directed towards the subject or topic at hand, rather than an individual.
I see. So the whole "cheating", "blasphemy", etc. thing was just a rhetorical device. It was a criticism of some other Daz members intended to provoke conversation. The comfy chair was never a real danger because the "cheating", "blasphemy" thing was unfounded. Well, I'm glad we got that settled. (EDIT: People can continue to post renders with and without postwork).
I am eager to learn more about postwork from anyone who wants to post a tutorial. The PhilW Infinite Skills intro to Carrara course has a short chapter on postwork.
Here is a double standard (lamp) to go with the armchair :)
Here is a list of photoshop tutorials that result from searching youtube for photoshop tutorial carrara composite
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=photoshop+tutorial+carrara+composite
Would be very happy to see screenshots of people exporting various passes from Carrara renders and going on from there, especially from the non-photorealistic render engine, NPR. Antara very helpfully started some posts along these lines in the Carrara challenge on Paradise Lost Paradise Found, and I've always been eager for more.
Hello!
I was just wandering around this morning and found this interesting thread. Postwork vs. no postwork is not really a controversy for me. I wish to learn it because I think my renders would be better. And faster, because some FX, though it can be done with the renderer, is maybe not the best choice for rendering, due to elapsed time requirements and rendering resource limitations.
So postwork is and probably will continue to be an important industry-standard skillset for any artist's toolbox.
But the problem for me is multi-fold, and partly self-inflicted:
1. Postwork is a whole separate skillset from modelling, composing a scene, posing characters, rendering, etc. All of these skillsets take time too.
2. I don't use Adobe software, and everything in the postwork universe is Photoshop-centric. Yes, it's about the subscription thing (aka "renting software"), and yes, I'm "that guy" who will be the last stubborn holdout! :smirk: This is a philosophical stance of great personal import for me, and probably is an argument best left for another time, but suffice to say, I won't use Adobe software, including those where subscription is not compulsory. Well, not "yet", I say. Therefore, I use alternatives wherever possible and only have Adobe if it's not possible to do otherwise (for example, the pieces-parts needed to use Wacom devices or tablet hardware/software, etc).
So needless to say, my strongly held stance on #2 makes #1 even more challenging for me, because some of the language is different, and some of the cheese has been moved.
Beyond my own personal drama with this matter, I still think postwork is an important skillset. But priorities being what they are, I'm just not yet ready to learn it in Corel (or "other"). Someday, yes. But for now, there are many other skillset improvements for me to keep busy with.
I appologise to both Joe and Chohole for any transgressions I may have made on the TOS.
I also should have added to my original post that I do find Joe's image in his original post quite interesting, and would like to hear more about the methods and resources used to create the image. Things like how were the bubbles created, how did you get the "fin" on the surf board (sorry, not a sufer, don't remember the technical term for it)' how did you make the shadow on the sea floor, how did you make the sea floor, etc. For someone like me, with little artistic talent or 2d post work experience, little nuggets of information regarding exactly how you made the image are extremely valuable.
Postwork is not the controversy as the OP would have you believe. The crap-storm is because the OP framed the topic in the manner that he did, which, unfortunately, is how he usually frames his topics.
Postwork is a tool to use, just like any other. The amount (if any) depends on a particular scene or image.
I think you will find many kindred spirits here, with the Adobe subscription model. I use an old version of PS (CS2) so it doesn't bug me, because the money Adobe had from me was like, ten years ago and they haven't had a cent since. Fortunately there are other image and video editors that can use alphas and compositing techniques. Finding tutorials on the other hand....
I appologise to both Joe and Chohole for any transgressions I may have made on the TOS.
I also should have added to my original post that I do find Joe's image in his original post quite interesting, and would like to hear more about the methods and resources used to create the image. Things like how were the bubbles created, how did you get the "fin" on the surf board (sorry, not a sufer, don't remember the technical term for it)' how did you make the shadow on the sea floor, how did you make the sea floor, etc. For someone like me, with little artistic talent or 2d post work experience, little nuggets of information regarding exactly how you made the image are extremely valuable.
I wouldn't apologize. You were very civil in your post and expressed your view on postwork.
I won't apologize either, because despite what Cho thinks the OP appears to be asking for, she is wrong. If the OP truly wanted to discuss compositing, he would have actually described what he did, provided a couple screen caps maybe. That's not what he did, and anybody that searches through his posts will recognize a pattern of behaviour- and if saying so violates the TOS, then so be it, because as long as the BS continues, I will call it out.
Something interesting - I use the free GIMP, for financial reasons.
My daughter is a professional graphic designer and Photoshop, Coral Draw, plus a few others expert. One day I asked her to help me with something. She had never even seen or heard of GIMP, but never hesitated for a second. Like any professional, she knows all the hotkeys and her hands were flying over the keyboard, using the same hotkeys as Photoshop!
GIMP has more free tuts than you can shake a stick at, if you are inclined to shake sticks :)
Even the hot-keys are similar? That's impressive. Years ago I considered trying GIMP, but at that point it was LINUX and OS X, having a UNIX kernel meant you could run it, but it had to be compiled to run on it. Or something. I just know it was a PITA and I didn't have the skills to even install it despite several attempts. This was in 2000 or so, so I'm sure it must be easier now.
I tried :-/ Heck I even admitted I am a postwork "heretic" myself on occasion. Heck I bet you wouldn't even realise this one was a Bryce render https://s3.amazonaws.com/bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-gallery/media/folder_75/file_749123.jpg
I love the storybook look to that one. What did you use for filters?
Here's an example video I did a few years ago. The first part is a straight Carrara rendered image sequence, which I compiled in Quicktime. I then put the image sequence through Image Ready (comes with Photoshop) to batch apply a simple Poster Edge filter to all the images in my image sequence folder, then compiled the altered images in Quictime. The city fly-through was done the same way. I think it came out with a neat comic-book sensibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkRvyKYDgo
Carrara does its own postwork as well. A couple good examples are the post render filters, such as the 'toon filter and even DOF. For DOF, you will get better results in an external editor if you render a depth pass. The toon filter looks okay as well, but it doesn't appear to be anti-aliased, so, again, you may get better results with an external process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd6XKMB5Cv8
postwork is usually pretty obvious :)
I love the storybook look to that one. What did you use for filters?
Here's an example video I did a few years ago. The first part is a straight Carrara rendered image sequence, which I compiled in Quicktime. I then put the image sequence through Image Ready (comes with Photoshop) to batch apply a simple Poster Edge filter to all the images in my image sequence folder, then compiled the altered images in Quictime. The city fly-through was done the same way. I think it came out with a neat comic-book sensibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkRvyKYDgo
Carrara does its own postwork as well. A couple good examples are the post render filters, such as the 'toon filter and even DOF. For DOF, you will get better results in an external editor if you render a depth pass. The toon filter looks okay as well, but it doesn't appear to be anti-aliased, so, again, you may get better results with an external process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd6XKMB5Cv8
Duplicate layers in Photoshop, Xero lithograph, and layer blended soft light, another layer with Xero Illustrator again I think that was blneded using soft light and the a 3rd layer using the lithograph again and I belive that time I blended it using luminoisty.
BTW, all the buildings and vehicles were built in Bryce, using prims and alternative prims and boolean ops.
Photoshop 7, so even older thatn your version. Xero filters here http://www.xero-graphics.co.uk/
Duplicate layers in Photoshop, Xero lithograph, and layer blended soft light, another layer with Xero Illustrator again I think that was blneded using soft light and the a 3rd layer using the lithograph again and I belive that time I blended it using luminoisty.
BTW, all the buildings and vehicles were built in Bryce, using prims and alternative prims and boolean ops.
Photoshop 7, so even older thatn your version.
Actually, that video may have been PS 7. I still have PS 7 installed in fact. I had an issue with how CS2 handled Gamma as opposed to PS 7. There was a change somewhere and it was easier to just use PS 7 when I was having problems with CS2. All sorted out now, though.
I've got an old Mac in the Garage that has PS 4 as well. Still works- the computer I mean.
Ah I forgot that you were on a mac, Xero's filters wouldn't help you then, as they are windoze only. I did notice, when I went to look for the link, that he no longer has some of the ones I have, he appears to have discotniued some, including the lithograph one.
No problem. I tend to not install a lot plugins. There's sources for them for the Mac if I really wanted to look. Mac users tend to use PS quite a bit.
I'm not sure that is really true. :)
I use post-work a lot for things I could do in the program (whether it's Carrara or DAZ Studio or one of my terrible noob experiments in Blender), like fixing poke-through, adding DOF, changing colors, adding details like cracks and grunge and so on, which are just faster for me to do in Photoshop. Even things like contrast and color adjustments could be done pre-render for the most part if you want to spend an entire day doing nothing but making subtle changes to lighting. I've completely painted over items in a scene, added props and shadows and more.
Look at these two attached images. In the first one, I added the pinup girl to the bike in Photoshop. In the second, I added all of the grunge and graphitti in Photoshop. That second one has a lot of post-work in it, but I think if you saw it you wouldn't see anything that stuck out as actually being post-work rather than just rendered.
EDIT TO ADD: In both image sets, the one on the left is the raw, straight out of DAZ Studio render and the one on the right is with post-work in Photoshop.
I'm not sure that is really true. :)
I use post-work a lot for things I could do in the program (whether it's Carrara or DAZ Studio or one of my terrible noob experiments in Blender), like fixing poke-through, adding DOF, changing colors, adding details like cracks and grunge and so on, which are just faster for me to do in Photoshop. Even things like contrast and color adjustments could be done pre-render for the most part if you want to spend an entire day doing nothing but making subtle changes to lighting. I've completely painted over items in a scene, added props and shadows and more.
Look at these two attached images. In the first one, I added the pinup girl to the bike in Photoshop. In the second, I added all of the grunge and graphitti in Photoshop. That second one has a lot of post-work in it, but I think if you saw it you wouldn't see anything that stuck out as actually being post-work rather than just rendered.
EDIT TO ADD: In both image sets, the one on the left is the raw, straight out of DAZ Studio render and the one on the right is with post-work in Photoshop.
honestly, woulda doubted the raw images due to the shadows. hard to tell what time of day it's s'posed to be.
mona lisa was painted over a 'background' image. :) early days of postworking
I used to avoid post work because I didn't know how to do it on video files. I bought Howler, remembering that I saw "Project Dogwaffle" in the DAZ 3D store long ago, and always wanted to try it as an image editor. Before I actually bought it, I checked out their tutorial videos a bit. With that much energy, and the way it was being presented, it looked like a group of people that I'd be glad to call friends. So I bought it. After watching more tutorials, I just got addicted to hearing Philip's wonderful voice, introducing more and more (and more and more) aspects of the program... animation renders are actually quite easy to post work on in Howler... now I render toward how I want to post work on it later ;)
I used to avoid post work because I didn't know how to do it on video files. I bought Howler, remembering that I saw "Project Dogwaffle" in the DAZ 3D store long ago, and always wanted to try it as an image editor. Before I actually bought it, I checked out their tutorial videos a bit. With that much energy, and the way it was being presented, it looked like a group of people that I'd be glad to call friends. So I bought it. After watching more tutorials, I just got addicted to hearing Philip's wonderful voice, introducing more and more (and more and more) aspects of the program... animation renders are actually quite easy to post work on in Howler... now I render toward how I want to post work on it later ;)
See, I told you all those years ago that postwork can be liberating and time saving. ;-)
Duplicate layers in Photoshop, Xero lithograph, and layer blended soft light, another layer with Xero Illustrator again I think that was blneded using soft light and the a 3rd layer using the lithograph again and I belive that time I blended it using luminoisty.
BTW, all the buildings and vehicles were built in Bryce, using prims and alternative prims and boolean ops.
Photoshop 7, so even older thatn your version. Xero filters here http://www.xero-graphics.co.uk/
Cho, not only do I like your image, it must be a photograph of the guy who stole my car, last seen in the valley below the castle! Look, there, at the driver of the yellow convertible. Somebody call the cops, I think we've got him! I hope my car hasn't been repainted orange like carrots or disassembled in his chompshop!
Those thievin' wascally wabbits! I say we make Hasenpfeffer stew out of all them!
Just so that Joe knows that we non-postworkers are indeed not in denial, but seeking insight and guidance. Here is a link to a thread I started months ago in the Bryce forums about the very same issue of postworking techniques. In that thread I posted a link to an image a friend of mine did some major postwork on and it made a huge difference.
Postworking Your Images
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/46963/
Anyhow, below is the original image, and the revised image after Richter did his magic. Richter's skills in Photoshop are so far beyond my own, that it almost makes me depressed and hopeless when I see what he can do because I probably will never be as good as he is. I have also provided the links to the original gallery entries so you can read the process he used.
Cement Jungle 7
http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=3007&mode=search
Richter's Nuclear Dawn
http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=4035&mode=search
Rashad,
you can get there! You just need to never set it as something that you might want to learn - but to start doing it for everything you do.
The differences between those two images is an excellent example. That is the sort of changes that I am now doing to my animated renders using Howler. All of those things that he's done in that image can be animated! I can't remember if it's PS, or if it's Illustrator... perhaps you need both? I don't know... I've switched to Howler and am happy there. But this sort of thing is mind blowing. It's actually easy to do, but not until you get used to knowing what you can do - what's available and how are there different ways to implement the changes... drawing selections or selecting by ranges of color or something else... on and on...
A lot of folks, like Richter, are also very happy to help you along if you get stuck and can't find the solution. But try to get it on your own first.
you can also skin GIMP to give it the Photoshop look by using available free plugins which is kinda cool :-)
postwork is usually pretty obvious :)
I beg to differ. Postwork is obvious when it isn't well-done. I'm betting 99.999% of the time you don't even know you're looking at something that has been postworked unless they tell you...if it's been done right. That is the point of postwork.
Purists are fine to keep to their guns if they like, but the reality is that if you work in the graphics or entertainment business, if it's needed to sell the product, it's going to be postworked. I have spent about 40 years in the industry and good postwork, and people who know how to do it, are worth their weight in gold.
It's a solid set of skills to learn and perfect for work purposes.