Non-photorealistic Renders (NPR)
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Very nicely done. Regarding the marine: Consider adding some color. He's too gray. I'd be very worried that he would blend into bacckgrounds, or that his limbs would blend into each other visually if you posed him at an angle, or if there were others around him (Marines usually come in groups). Just something to think about.
The page is nice: It's hard to go wrong with a simple four-panel stack layout like this, and I like how it gave "beats" to the story. I would suggest revisting the font, though. It lacks character. Also, consider adding larger caps to the first letter of each panel, and varying the weight of your words, such as putting the word "think" in boldface. As for color vs B&W. I would suggest color for this. B&W usually requires a stronger edge line to better define characters and separate them from the background, and your art doesn't have that. Color is playing a strong part in your page and I would suggest keeping it.
What software are you using for your comic layout, by the way?
Thank you for the suggestion on the Marine and comic font. I am currently using Manga Studios 5 for the comic layout. As for the Marine, I agree with the color scheme and apply some changes (ommitting the pauldrons). The gun features have some of greeble bits from Dzfire, along with some stuff that I have drawn and extrude in 3D via Photoshop.
WOW! What a difference a few color changes can make! I really like this! The subtle shade difference between lighter limbs and darker torso really helps with the "blending in" issue I mentioned. I also love the vivid green. Those pops of color really give it an "alien" feel.
How are you liking Manga Studio 5? At first, I wasn't overly impressed, but the more I've used it the more I've come to see that its tools really do help streamline the creation of comics.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next (and if you do decide to reletter the page, please post it).
I just discovered this thread and thought I'd add a couple of things to it. :)
I think I do more postwork than folks have been using, so I hope what I post will be okay. But, I tend to use Redfield's Fractalius, and (not in this particular one) often one of several neural network painting programs. Sometimes some other proceedural painting software.
I love style and direction you are going with this, Its very lovely!
Thank you! Manga Studios 5 for now is "ok" Although I would say if the price is low, get the premium EX because some of the features are benficial. Only by spending some time to learn the tools will be beneficial and quick process. As for the current project. I'm really emphasizing in limiting the use of assets now and focus on using only for references. Characters are being redrawn after a while through pencil sketching and photoshop. Eventually, I'll stick with Bryce, Blender, Terradome to build up scenes.
I bought the base version of Manga Studio to see if it was worth getting, and like you, I decided it was. So I have both versions running on my two different computers. I think I paid about $140 for the EX version at Amazon. Right now, I'm fully invested in using Poser 11 to create the art and then manipulate it in MS5EX. I'm pleased with the results and enjoying this workflow.
The one thing I don't love about my workflow is that I am basically cut off from Daz Studio and the Genesis figures and props. Not that it's terribly limiting, but sticking with the Version 4 figures is more reliable when working in Poser.
"Spanish Moss" -- Entering Spanish Bayou.
Been enjoying playing with photoshop filters and LineRender9000.
interesting effect, Will. Each with a suprisingly different 'feel'. Nice.
You liking LR9000? Can you get the outlines you want?
Still on the fence, as I don't care for the posterized effect in some of the demo-renders, but really like the other outline results...
thoughts from your explorations?
tnx,
--ms
For those using or interested in Topaz filters, their Black Friday coupon, BLACKFRIDAY16, drops the bundle price to half off ($249, instead of $499). If you've bought some of their products, a percentage is taken off for each product that you own to lower the price further. The filters work in Photoshop or through their stand-alone program, PhotoFXLab, that's included in the bundle. (I haven't used that personally except for the three filters that I already owned, but I think it eliminates the need for Photoshop.)
Mindsong: there are lots of options. The 'win' for me is the fractal line output, which solves nearly all the problems I have with the normal based outlines of most similar products.
Will: that sounds interesting! I've been working through the same tools (toonycam, pwtoon, VisualStyle, Manga-Style, EustaceScrub's stuff, etc.) to various effect (some good some not-so-good) in my quest for the so-called cel-shaded silver-bullet...
Any quick samples of the different looks from your experiments? (are your above attachments using that effect?) I'm looking for crisp outlines and less shadow/fill effects.
cheers,
--ms
Yeah, been using linerender for all my recent drawing renders. But the effect, as I've used it, has been fairly subtle. I'll try to do a more illustrative workflow example.
It's almost a thread in itself - "Outlines and edges" for a bunch of us...
I've been tracking your great projects, progress, and experiments both here and DA and figured you might have some sample renders around that highlight your convergence on your preferred style as well as your mixes and matches of the various tools we're all hacking at! I've got piles of 'uncomposed' images that I render to see just the hair lines or the like and wondered if you had some as well - not looking for a research project or anything, more like - "hey check out this variation" etc.
I like your Hollowfaust-Necromancer effect at DA and am looking to add color fills to something like that in my target style.
It is fun to experiment...
cheers,
--ms
The problem is that the current effect is really subtle, so in a final image it doesn't leap out. Now, I LIKE that, it's subtle because it blends but creates an important effect. It's just hard to grok from a final product. And thank you! Glad to encourage others. My daughter is on the computer right now but when she goes to bed it won't take me long to whip up an example.
I love it! I love the art and color
Here's a sample workflow. LineRender9000, used default Black and White setting thing. I used the Toon 2 cam output, Main camera line output, and Fresnel line output.
The toon 2 cam output is the bulk of the image. It's a color image, but I use it twice -- one to create a graphic pen 'sketchy' look (photoshop filter), and another to provide color to the previous output (via Overlay -- the sketchy picks up the color from the original).
First image is toon 2 cam output, the second is the 'graphic pen' output inverted (since the filter effectively reverses the light/shadow of the image, I inverted it to return it to the look I wanted)
The main camera lines provides a strong outline (I blurred it a little and adjusted tone). That's image 3.
The fresnel lines provide strong details (I blurred it a tiny bit and adjusted tone). That's image 4. Line threshold is important -- the lower, the more detail, but at a certain point the lines bleed together.
Image 5 shows the initial result -- the graphic pen overlayed the original 2 tone image. That's a result anyone could get from just basic 3DL and some filters.
Image 6, however, adds the lines from 3 & 4. The effect, in this image, is subtle... but I think it creates a much stronger image. (also some tone adjustment to create a better image)
Using the Fresnel shading from previous stuff, here's another example. I took the fresnel shaded image (image 1), adjusted tone from black to medium gray -> dark gray to white, applied Photoshop's 'crosshatch' gallery (image 2), then overlaid the outlines again (image 3)
One critical part in this is finding a filtering method that doesn't move the image around TOO much; a lot of filtering will end up squishing or stretching the image slightly, which then makes it hard to line up with the outlines.
If the outlines are being blurred and overlaid thickly, there's more give, but if you are doing really precise lines it's tricky.
Another thought: sometimes, if you are going after a shadow or color pass, it might be better off doing it in Iray; 3DL has fairly rigid completion process, while with Iray you can stop it when it's good enough, given most filtering is destructive to fine details.
There have been several cases where a, say, 2160x2160 image in 3DL is going to take WAY longer to finish than getting an equivalent Iray image to 'good enough.' And the nice thing about LineRender9000, at least, is that for stuff line outlines, it doesn't care much what the surfaces are.
Here's another experiment. I was interested in testing how well it handles transmapped hair... and I'm pretty impressed. That's another area where other products just fail hard.
This was much like the previous workflow, actually -- fractal shadow adjusted to make a main layer, then main camera and fresnel lines on top.
Character drawings. 4 more in the works.
Note: I still need to work on the depth of the wall, although the character came out great :)
More simple scenes (in that I'm not doing a lot with props beyond load and then fiddly with cameras)
Should do some more dynamic scenes...
Nice! :)
Wow Will - that's a great sequence!
Thanks for sharing that with us.
I thought I knew what sort of look I was going for, but now, looking at your sketch/grain styles, I may shift gears again. great stuff. too many options!
Thanks again. Right now I'm working on an anime-ish cel-style, and matching outlining and shadow styles (esp. hair) are keeping me busy. Ambient is fighting shadow-control (darkness and color/mood) with my current tools. All very interesting - trying to converge, and the experiments are fascinating.
cheers,
--ms
Awesome pictures, Will! Thanks for sharing.
I think if Progressive Rendering is set to 'Yes', then you can stop the in-process 3Delight render and subsequently save the image.
You CAN, but there's a very distinct line between one pass and another; you'd have to time it pretty well to get a '2 pass' image. I wonder if there's a setting for that. Hmm
Last weekend I splurged and got the upgrade to Poser Pro 11, and immediately started experimenting with the comic and cartoon shading features. Neither are "pushbutton" solutions, but after playing around for a couple of hours, I can see how it'll be a helpful workflow. The characters I intend to render with it are all Poser compatible, but most use textures files, so they all have to be changed to a simnple color base to use with the cartoon shader. This can be problematic as many of the models are simple, and have painted-in eyes -- no separate iris, pupil, and sclera. I will have to separate those out. Mixing cartoon/comic renders with the new PBR Superfly renders, using selective masks, yielded some interesting results.
I can still see doing a lot of multipass work in D|S, but at $75 Poser Pro 11 is pretty cheap for just its NPR features. Even using Superfly/Cycles, it's capable of more granular control of its biasing components, which can be helpful for non-photoreal renders.
I've been playing with LineRender9000, trying to get a handle on using it well. I set up a simple scene, pulled out a lot of layers with the different cameras to take into Gimp to composite. I'm getting some pretty good results, even better when I also go into Gimp and play around adding some extra touches with the Google NIK Filters. My favorite so far.
Sweet, Tobor. Please post some images if/when you get a chance - would love to see 'em!
- Greg