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Non-photorealistic Renders (NPR)

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  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,715

    Well if you ever manage to get that working for other people I would definitely be interested too...

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech.  I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that.  If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that?  You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires.  .....

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited January 2016
    algovincian said:

    First of all I can't speak for DAZ. Secondly, to be clear, I believe DAZ was interested if the technology could be packaged up and sold just like any other product in their store. I believe the fact that part of it could (the analysis pass shaders/scripts), but the second part can't (the sketching, painting, etc.) complicated things. They've obviously invested a lot in setting up their marketplace, and I can appreciate a desire stick to the system that is already established and proven to work. Also, if I had just made the major move to switch default render engine to Iray, I may not be overly enthusiastic about making special accomodations for new technology based on 3DL, either.

    - Greg

    RAMWolff said:

    Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech.  I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that.  If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that?  You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires.  .....

    I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better. Let me take the time to try and explain the current process with a concrete example:

    Step #1 - Analysis Passes

    I've written scripts that dynamically apply custom shaders to every node in a scene in DAZ Studio, one at a time. After applying each shader and setting parameters intelligently for each material, the script will render out the scene and save the resulting file. For each analysis pass, the script applies a different shader, sets the parameters for each material, and then renders. Currently, the 8 analysis passes are: highlights, color, base, world mask, fresnel, ambient occlusion, z-depth, and energy. Below is a concrete example of what these 8 image files look like for the mermaid I posted yesterday in the other NPR thread:


    Step #2 - Illustration

    I've also developed technology that takes the analysis passes from step #1 and, based on all the information they contain, produces many different styles of illustrations (sketches, paintings, etc.). Below, for example, are 2 of the styles produced:

    What I was attempting to say, is that right now, step #1 is accomplished using DAZ Studio. If you had the scripts and shaders installed on your machine, then you could accomplish step #1 and produce the analysis passes, too.

    Step #2, illustration, has nothing to do with DAZ Studio. The technology that I've developed to accomplish step #2 does not utilize DAZ Studio at all. It is this 2nd part of the process that cannot be packaged up, and sold/distributed. This complicates things and means that it can't be a standard product, like all the others.

    Again, I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better!

    Also, I'd like to add that the scripts and shaders could be duplicated in other 3D packages. I explained why I chose DAZ in a previous post:

    algovincian said:

    I started developing the analysis passes using DAZ Studio because (1) you can script DS, (2) it's easy to author 3DL shaders in DS, and (3) there is a huge array of high quality content for DS readily accesible for testing. I find DS to be extremely stable for rendering the analysis passes, and I'm very comfortable using it. The other infrastructure that DAZ has in place (accounts, sales, marketing, etc.) would seem to be a good fit, too.

    - Greg

     

    analysis-passes.jpg
    660 x 1716 - 605K
    x-w-00001.jpg
    792 x 1029 - 648K
    fff-w-00001.jpg
    792 x 1029 - 573K
    Post edited by algovincian on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,217
    edited January 2016

    using iClone toon render

    iClone toon.jpg
    1000 x 2000 - 657K
    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • NoName99NoName99 Posts: 322
    edited January 2016
    algovincian said:
    algovincian said:

    First of all I can't speak for DAZ. Secondly, to be clear, I believe DAZ was interested if the technology could be packaged up and sold just like any other product in their store. I believe the fact that part of it could (the analysis pass shaders/scripts), but the second part can't (the sketching, painting, etc.) complicated things. They've obviously invested a lot in setting up their marketplace, and I can appreciate a desire stick to the system that is already established and proven to work. Also, if I had just made the major move to switch default render engine to Iray, I may not be overly enthusiastic about making special accomodations for new technology based on 3DL, either.

    - Greg

    RAMWolff said:

    Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech.  I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that.  If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that?  You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires.  .....

    I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better. Let me take the time to try and explain the current process with a concrete example:

    Step #1 - Analysis Passes

    I've written scripts that dynamically apply custom shaders to every node in a scene in DAZ Studio, one at a time. After applying each shader and setting parameters intelligently for each material, the script will render out the scene and save the resulting file. For each analysis pass, the script applies a different shader, sets the parameters for each material, and then renders. Currently, the 8 analysis passes are: highlights, color, base, world mask, fresnel, ambient occlusion, z-depth, and energy. Below is a concrete example of what these 8 image files look like for the mermaid I posted yesterday in the other NPR thread:


    Step #2 - Illustration

    I've also developed technology that takes the analysis passes from step #1 and, based on all the information they contain, produces many different styles of illustrations (sketches, paintings, etc.). Below, for example, are 2 of the styles produced:

    What I was attempting to say, is that right now, step #1 is accomplished using DAZ Studio. If you had the scripts and shaders installed on your machine, then you could accomplish step #1 and produce the analysis passes, too.

    Step #2, illustration, has nothing to do with DAZ Studio. The technology that I've developed to accomplish step #2 does not utilize DAZ Studio at all. It is this 2nd part of the process that cannot be packaged up, and sold/distributed. This complicates things and means that it can't be a standard product, like all the others.

    Again, I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better!

    Also, I'd like to add that the scripts and shaders could be duplicated in other 3D packages. I explained why I chose DAZ in a previous post:

    algovincian said:

    I started developing the analysis passes using DAZ Studio because (1) you can script DS, (2) it's easy to author 3DL shaders in DS, and (3) there is a huge array of high quality content for DS readily accesible for testing. I find DS to be extremely stable for rendering the analysis passes, and I'm very comfortable using it. The other infrastructure that DAZ has in place (accounts, sales, marketing, etc.) would seem to be a good fit, too.

    - Greg

     

    That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

    It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop.  What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

    That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes.  Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork. 

    Post edited by NoName99 on
  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112

    Looking at those render passes it gives me a better idea how it's done !

    Amazing surprise

  • CybersoxCybersox Posts: 9,054

    To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway.  I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.   

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    JaguarElla said:

    using iClone toon render

    That's a great looking render, JaguarElla. I've looked into iClone on more than one occasion - mainly for the hybrid conforming/simulation thing they have going on.

    Thanks for contributing to the thread - I'd love to see some more if you have 'em!

    - Greg

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,217
    edited January 2016

    I mostly do videos not renders

     

    bit of intersecting mesh unfortunately in this one the cottage exterior should not be loaded with the interior I learnt

     

    some Carrara as well as iClone

     

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited January 2016
    DinoVincent said:

    That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

    It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop.  What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

    That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes.  Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork. 

    As it stands now, Step #2, Illustration, produces final output images in the 16-20 million pixel range that take about 40 minutes to cook on my distributed network. In addition to the final output files, there are a slew of intermediate files produced and saved along the way. When all is said and done, about 100 files are written for each scene, taking up well over a half a GB (some are compressed when it doesn't matter, while other files must remain uncompressed).

    In order to accomplish this work, there is a ton of software installed/licensed on the boxes that are part of the distributed network (including other software kernels that I have written). I've got VB scripts controlling applications, which in turn are running scripts written for their own proprietary built-in scripting language (just like DAZ). It would take an army of people and a boatload of cash to re-invent all of those wheels and package them all into a single product which could be sold.

    Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min).

    This has been an evolutionary process for me - incremental progress has been made over thousands of iterations. For 20+ years, I've been running batches overnight, looking at the results in the morning, changing the code, and then re-running the batch that night. I've been doing this every day for decades!

    Making the analysis shaders available in the shop presents it's own challenges as well. The analysis shaders need to grab information from not only object geometry, but also from whatever materials are applied. The set of possible materials applied is an infinite set, so you can imagine what a headache this could be.

    I hope this better answers your questions. I've been questioned/criticized by many for providing too much information about my work, and I'm sure this post will generate more of that. While I'm not making everything about my work open source, I do believe in freely discussing a lot of the concepts and strategies I've employed.

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,217

    I am impressed by your dedication

    I think many thought it was a simple plugin or script but in fact more work than postworking the image

    certainly I would never have the patience to do all that

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    JaguarElla said:

    I am impressed by your dedication

    I think many thought it was a simple plugin or script but in fact more work than postworking the image

    certainly I would never have the patience to do all that

    Yes . . . I am crazy. I don't deny it, but rather embrace it ;)

    - Greg

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    Thanks for a clearer picture.  OK.  So DAZ doesn't have their heads up their arses but the process, in time, MIGHT be more streamlined and the time to accomplish the results might also be more streamlined.... in time.  The final process MIGHT be something that could be done within DS using the image editor, if the code were expanded to include layering with many if not all of the blend channels that Photoshop offers. 

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    These are 'production' level shaders...

    The output should be usable in any compositing program...manually, at least.  No, that wouldn't be for everyone, but it would be a usable way of doing things.

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    Cybersox13 said:

    To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway.  I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.   

    I would love to see some examples, Cybersox13. If you'd like, I can post the render passes for the dragon slayer scene (which we all have) for you to play with. Let me know.

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    RAMWolff said:

    Thanks for a clearer picture.  OK.  So DAZ doesn't have their heads up their arses but the process, in time, MIGHT be more streamlined and the time to accomplish the results might also be more streamlined.... in time.  The final process MIGHT be something that could be done within DS using the image editor, if the code were expanded to include layering with many if not all of the blend channels that Photoshop offers. 

    No, RAMWolff. The kernels performing the work are already optimized, and they do so much more than layer blending. Development will conitnue, but at this point, I'm not sure how much more developing (if any) I'll be doing in DS.

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    mjc1016 said:

    These are 'production' level shaders...

    The output should be usable in any compositing program...manually, at least.  No, that wouldn't be for everyone, but it would be a usable way of doing things.

    Yep - you got it mjc! It's just image files that could be used by any application, and produced by any 3D application with the ability to write custom shaders and a built-in scripting language to apply them.

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    JaguarElla said:

    I mostly do videos not renders

    Everybody here got a good chuckle out of your Goldilocks video, JaguarElla. Thanks for posting it in the thread!

    - Greg

  • NoName99NoName99 Posts: 322
    algovincian said:
    DinoVincent said:

    That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

    It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop.  What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

    That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes.  Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork. 

    Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min)

    I'm not sure what happened there, but I suspect my use of the term postwork went in another direction. 

    I certainly wasn't dismissing your process as simple script running or minimizing the effort you've put into it.

    As a VFX/compositor working in post-production, postwork isn't a term thats used in a disparaging or insulting way.   

    To clarify, after principle work has been completed, any work performed during post-production, regardless of size, scale, or level of difficulty, is postwork. 

    Whether it's a small team of roto-artists working on a few frames, or a render farm of hundreds of computers rendering a large explosion, it's all done in post.

    Again, I'm not minimizing your workflow during step 2, or even speculating on what it is.

    I was simply suggesting that there may be a market for a package of solely the render passes from what your describing in step 1.

    This is a slightly out of the box idea, meaning that instead of marketing it as a NPR product/Shader, it could be packed as a render pass utility.

    The multiple render passes can be used in outside compositing software as traveling mattes and layer masks when comping image sequences rendered out of daz with other footage.  

    Again, this wouldn't be to reproduce your illustrative results.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    DinoVincent said:
    algovincian said:
    DinoVincent said:

    That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

    It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop.  What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

    That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes.  Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork. 

    Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min)

    I'm not sure what happened there, but I suspect my use of the term postwork went in another direction. 

    I certainly wasn't dismissing your process as simple script running or minimizing the effort you've put into it.

    As a VFX/compositor working in post-production, postwork isn't a term thats used in a disparaging or insulting way.   

    To clarify, after principle work has been completed, any work performed during post-production, regardless of size, scale, or level of difficulty, is postwork. 

    Whether it's a small team of roto-artists working on a few frames, or a render farm of hundreds of computers rendering a large explosion, it's all done in post.

    Again, I'm not minimizing your workflow during step 2, or even speculating on what it is.

    I was simply suggesting that there may be a market for a package of solely the render passes from what your describing in step 1.

    This is a slightly out of the box idea, meaning that instead of marketing it as a NPR product/Shader, it could be packed as a render pass utility.

    The multiple render passes can be used in outside compositing software as traveling mattes and layer masks when comping image sequences rendered out of daz with other footage.  

    Again, this wouldn't be to reproduce your illustrative results.

    Let me apologize if I came across as being irritated. That certainly wasn't my intent, and any frustration you may have sensed was only frustration with myself for my own inability to communicate effectively. I've been trying, but unable to do so, since April of last year . . . I should probably stop trying, eh?

    /facepalm

    Back in April, I wanted to release the analysis shaders/scripts for free, assuming an arrangement could be worked out to integrate the illustration somehow. What I ultimately envision is the analysis passes being generated under the hood, with the results being transmitted seamlessly to a render farm for illustration. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot as far as the ability to partner with somebody else in the future who is actually interested in integrating the technology.

    Do you have any links to your work, DinoVincent? Would love to see what you're working on.

    - Greg

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112
    edited January 2016

    Had a crack at it but nowhere near you. Still got to get the shadows right and all post work.

    Demon sketch.jpg
    800 x 1040 - 267K
    Demon Color.jpg
    800 x 1040 - 327K
    Post edited by Midnight_stories on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    Those are great, Wayne! I like how the outline isn't a hard outline, and the coloring looks good, too. Thanks for sharing your work in this thread, and please keep 'em coming!

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited January 2016
    Cybersox13 said:

    To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway.  I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.   

    For those who had expressed an interest in playing around, attached are the 8 analysis passes plus the volumetric pass rendered out of DAZ for one particular scene (it's a slight modification of the dragon slayer scene included as an essential). These are the same files (only compressed a bit for upload) that were passed to the illustrators to create the final styles seen here:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/982588/#Comment_982588

    Notes:

    1. the files are split between this post and the one immediately following

    2. the world-mask file is solid white because the scene is an enclosed room (normally it would be showing black where the world sphere geometry is showing through)

    3. the volumetrics file was rendered much smaller on purpose to cut render times

    - Greg

    volumetrics.jpg
    480 x 270 - 25K
    highlights.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
    base.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 814K
    world-mask.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 27K
    fresnel.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 617K
    Post edited by algovincian on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    And here are the remaining 4 files . . .

    - Greg

    color.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 815K
    ao.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
    z.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 273K
    energy.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 274K
  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112

    There was a poser script that used to produce all those render passes "Advanced Render Settings 2" by Semidieu

    I may have to dig it out and have a look. Thanks for sharing your renders very inspiring !

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    Midnight_stories said:

    There was a poser script that used to produce all those render passes "Advanced Render Settings 2" by Semidieu

    I may have to dig it out and have a look. Thanks for sharing your renders very inspiring !

    Thanks for the info. I googled it and popped up with a PDF manual for it - great stuff! I've never used Poser, but who knows . . . maybe I'll start?

    - Greg

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 798

    algovincian:

     

    Love the new work you have posted.  I love, love, love your work!  Keep them coming.  They are awe-inspiring.  Did I mention that I love your work...

     

    Midnight_stories:

     

    Those are awesome illustrations as well!  I know what you mean about feeling like our work is nowhere near his, but yours are always fantastic too.  Everytime I look at them I wonder why you haven't published a graphic novel, or comic series yet.  But, I know you are a busy man with all your wonderful content creations.  Keep up the great work on both fronts, and keep your NPR work coming as well.  Helps keep me inspired to play.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,011
    edited January 2016

    I've been returning to toon/drawn style rendering, doing stuff... a bit more primitive than Algovincian, but:

    I started with Iray render here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/The-Sere-Amphora-582875302

    Did a lineart render using DZToon and some of those freebie Geoshell outline things here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Lineart-583213979

    Layered them with lineart on Overlay mode, some tweaks to curves: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Semicolored-583359118

    Grayscale version: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Gray-583359203

     

    I ended up liking the third ('semicolored') best. I'm redoing it right now because the original Iray render used depth of field, which I need to shut off.

     

    I'm hoping to get PWToon soon and see if that helps workflow. Right now for lineart my method:

    Set Diffuse/Ambient color to pure white, no textures. Be sure to have a texture for displacement (if there isn't one, use bump map)

    Adjust Outline Threshold and Displacement to get the lines I want. If certain lines aren't appearing, use a geoshell outline to add to it.

    If I want a more grayscalish effect, probably drop the ambient and actually use lighting.

     

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    timmins.william said:

    I've been returning to toon/drawn style rendering, doing stuff... a bit more primitive than Algovincian, but:

    I started with Iray render here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/The-Sere-Amphora-582875302

    Did a lineart render using DZToon and some of those freebie Geoshell outline things here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Lineart-583213979

    Layered them with lineart on Overlay mode, some tweaks to curves: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Semicolored-583359118

    Grayscale version: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Gray-583359203

     

    I ended up liking the third ('semicolored') best. I'm redoing it right now because the original Iray render used depth of field, which I need to shut off.

     

    I'm hoping to get PWToon soon and see if that helps workflow. Right now for lineart my method:

    Set Diffuse/Ambient color to pure white, no textures. Be sure to have a texture for displacement (if there isn't one, use bump map)

    Adjust Outline Threshold and Displacement to get the lines I want. If certain lines aren't appearing, use a geoshell outline to add to it.

    If I want a more grayscalish effect, probably drop the ambient and actually use lighting.

    Lookin good! Thanks for posting a bit about your process, and let us know how you like PWToon if/when you pick it up.

    - Greg

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,011

    I just went 'eh, to hell with it' and got PWToon and already really liking it. Heh.

    I don't know why I was so resistant, it's not like I'm somehow more 'real' using DIFFERENT tools.

     

This discussion has been closed.