Something most 3D artists get wrong (including me)
mmitchell_houston
Posts: 2,484
I would like to share something that my wife observed a few years back. And I really hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings or start anything. But if one of our goals at this forum is to help each other improve as an artist, then perhaps this is something you can use to produce better, more realistic work.
Back to my anecdote: My wife saw a billboard here in Houston and, as it was on her way home and visible from an intersection where she stopped almost every day, she had a chance to study it. After about a week, she told me she realized that the billboard was not using a photo, but a Poser model (I later saw it and confirmed at a glance that it was Victoria 4) -- it was a closeup of a beautiful face and it was being used to sell cosmetic treatments like removing bags under the eyes, mole removal, etc. Sorry, I don't have a photo of it anymore, and I don't recall the company being advertised. Victoria was suitably beautiful and the artist obviously had used some great add-on hi-def products, because the eyes were really striking and realistic, as were the eyebrows and even the hair. It was a really nice render.
Nevertheless, my wife said she realized that something was wrong with the image the first time she glanced at it, but it took a few days before she was able to nail down exactly what it was that told her this was not a real person. The make-up was wrong.
Not just a little wrong, but really wrong for the woman's complexion and cheekbones. As she said, "No woman would ever leave the house looking like that, unless she was a stripper."
And that's it, folks. My wife really got it right. A lot of 3D images fail to achieve realism-- not because of low poly counts or failure to properly render subsurface scattering in the skin -- but because the model doesn't "behave" like a real woman and wears makeup in an unrealistic way for her role in the scene, or for the lighting being used (even low makeup can look garish if the wrong lights are used) is just wrong. The result is we end up with a lot of renders where the female model looks like a stripper (or worse).
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. And I'm just as guilty of churning out these types of renders as anyone else.
And what's worse, I don't have a solution to suggest, except to suggest you visit a website on makeup tips and just think about toning down some of the lipstick and rouge a little. As I said, this post is really here to -- hopefully -- start people thinking and talking about ways that we can all work to improve our art and take our renders to the next level of realism.
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Comments
3d art has a strong fantasy element and makeup tastes can be cultural and regional. So I expect war paint makeup will continue to remain in vogue as will corsets and high heels. What bothers me are the poses used for female characters that look like the individuals have a spinal issue. Sadly, I am in the minority I think in disliking that and such things will continue as long as people think they are attractive.
OK, we're talking about using an ENTIRELY FICTITIOUS CGI model to sell real cosmetics designed to be applied to a REAL HUMAN BEING. Whether or not the render looks like a stripper is NOT what is wrong with the ad.
I agree somewhat with pwiecek in that the use of a CGI model to sell is questionable. However, mmitchell was talking more about procedures than products (mole removal, etc). At the same time, a CGI robot sells Vodka, The truth-in-advertising test would fail only if the advertiser suggested "Look like this after three treatments." Which is, of course, impossible.
IMHO, there is little difference between using a super model (human) to advertise any fashion, cosmetic, or life-style product than it is for Vickie. Both are virtually artificial (pun intended) and not typical of human beings.
Not trying to be offensive either, but it doesn´t work that way.
Lets say, a cosmetic company is hireing you to create one render for an advertising. They order a beautiful woman with stylized make-up. You have to fullfill the companys wish or you not getting payed. Nobody cares about your artistic talent and what you would like to do.
Or on the other side, lets say you created a piece of art and this one is sold as a stock image to a Marketing Agency. You don´t know if a company will buy that to advertise their cosmetics or something else. Nobody cares why this piece of art was created in the first place.
Maybe you are right with your conclusion, but I remember the old days ... 3 or 4 months ago, when realism wasn´t that important in our artwork. We just wanted to have fun in rendering, it was all about fancy colors and cool effects.
A Shader Package like Strange Substances was a must have. Probably we will never see something like this again, because everyone will complain about such an unrealistic concept.
Hadn´t the time to play with Genesis3 yet and not being into Iray. Only by following the discussions in this forum nowadays makes me feel like a dinosaur. The environmental conditions changed to fast, soon I will die out! :-P
@SereneNight: You are not so totally a minority in this. DAZ has lots of realistiv looking male figures, but very, very few realistic looking female figures. I regret to say, but even Victoria7 doesn't look realistic to me. No crease, no wrinkle, but lots of make-up. Nothing like a real woman in my part of the world.
And all these outfits no sane woman would ever wear!
I agree with statement. When I first began, realism was least important, but over time became priority, but during the process, creating 3D was no longer fun. Took a break for awhile, returned to the basics, having fun again. Think to many of us, get caught up with realism fad, opposed to just having fun.
Iray makes realism within reach of basic users.
I'm much more interested in an involved less realistic fantasy style render. If I want realism I would use a camera.
Exactly ;-)
My suggestion to you would be to recognize that "realism" is not the only worthy goal in the 3D realm, and that there are legions of our medium peers who produce stellar work that has nothing to do with "realism". I can state with reasonable certainty that many 3D artists "think" a great deal about their work... even if it features women who "look like strippers"... but they choose to concentrate on conveying their conception rather than catering to the myopic sensibilities of judgmental mainstreamers. Not all of us share your concept of "the brush used" nor desire the same result that you have summarily ordained as the only acceptable one.
I've noticed there seems to be a big demand for pseudofemales with abnormal features who look and dress like strippers. I honestly don't understand it. My issue with realism is that some renders don't look real in the context of the scene. I'm not an expert or anything but I can tell when something doesn't look right. If I'm looking at a huge fantasy scene with dragon's etc. I want to get engrossed in the scene, I don't want to be dragged out because the composition is off, or the lighting is not quite right or the artist has posed the dragons in what looks like a credible manner. It's interesting how people view things through different lenses. If you're trying to sell me something with an amateurish looking render, it makes me question the quality of your product.
Andi it definitely looks wrong if you show a seasoned battle-woman in a chainmail Bikini on stilett heels in a winter battle scene.
There has to be something said about the target audience. Not too long ago, 3d and CGI were geared to one focus - making video games. Video games retail to primarily teen and young adult males. Same with the developers - for a very long time the industry was (and still is to a certain extent) very male dominated. It was the same with comic books back in the day - thus the unrealistic female superheroes. My background is painting tabletop gaming miniatures, and it's the same thing there with the unrealistic female models and the male dominated hobby.
BUT - times they are a changing and women in the video game, miniature painting, and 3d/CGI industries are the fastest growth demographic on the planet. And because many ladies are career oriented, they come with buying dollars as well. As that continues, the paradigm will shift. It just takes marketing awhile to gather stats and look at the bottom line then adjust accordingly.
Just think we can look forward to a remake of What Women Want. lol!
So ladies - let's kick change in the fake butt and get it moving the right direction. :)
Kathryn, you commented that the unrealistic female superheroes grew from the comic book and gaming industries. I believe that to be true, but look at "literary" art through time. It may go back as far as the old masters. By painting wings on their models, the nude became the angel and thus passed the censors.
The males in cover art, too, face a stereotype. Broad of chest and shoulder, square jawed, piercing gaze and yes, scantily clad. These Adonis creatures were muscled in places that, were I to discover that muscle, it would likely be painful. Most certainly, if the model lacked any of these qualities, the artist embellished the painting (pre-photoshop) to get the desired look.
As to realism. I subscribe to Gene Roddenberry's axiom. "Could it exist". Warp drive, phasers and such were complete fantasy (in 1964) but had their base in real science. I define myself as an illustrator, rather than an artist, I like to illustrate a story, even when it's only in my head. While most of my female models undergo breast-reduction surgery prior to working with me ;-) They also lose about 4" in height (realism, not every woman is 6' tall). Any of my scant-wear, I acquire through bundles. To date, only faerie-folk seem to like it.
The render engines are improving exponentially. Iray offers near photo realism, once you master it's differences. I like the realism in these new renders - reflections that are accurate. Lighting that does not require 4 years of film school to work out. No longer do I have to put lights under tables to simulate ambient light.
But, in the end, with all this said... a "realistic" image is not well received. Take a look at the gallery "likes"; those which depict everyday or mundane themes are seldom liked. But, show cleavage, leg, or a sultry pose... and voila!
In conclusion, we have the power to create the environment and inventory we wish. Vote with your dollars for outfits, meshes, and such. Vote with your thumbs for the images that do not stereotype either gender. Artists, especially those with commercial interests, will create what sells (non-pros create what gets liked). Above all, create what YOU like and damn the critics.
Oh don't get me wrong, Etrigan, I agree with you. My point is that target audience is an aspect that needs to be considered when looking at the evolution of not only art but art used as a sales media. I'm a huge fan of Frazetta and Vallejo - I still love the Molly Hatchet album covers. lol! And yes, I still have some vinyl that I treasured and are now considered collectables. ;)
In the forms of marketing - sex sells - and as long as it does, there will be the out of proportion males and females (I'm a romance author on Amazon - so there ya go. lol!), but the good news is the industry is responding to the growth segments - and marketing not only to men but ladies as well. And bravo to you for taking your own stand with your work. That's what also drives changes in an industry.
But I offer a different idea on realism being mundane. Yeah, try to market an element - say a kitchen layout - with an middle-aged, overweight, balding man with a bad comb-over getting his morning cup of coffee, that's reality but not likely to sell. Drop some Playboy bunnies getting things ready for a big bash in that kitchen and it doesn't matter if you have bad comb-over dude in the middle of them.
Successful marketing campaigns follow one rule show people what they wish they were, not what they are.
But there are ways to make things realistic without going mundane - First Bastion's Art of the Promo thread has a lot of excellent examples. Yes, there are a lot of successful stereotypes too - there will always be.
Now this is just me personally and how I challenge myself . . .
My challenge as an artist and an author - is push my creativity - not only to think outside the box but reshape the damned thing. Make the box and how we see it new and different. A lot of times putting the flare of the stereotype into the presentation without falling into it face first can be highly successful.
Everyone will define their own goals and targets differently, but in order to do so we have to look not only a segments but various influences along the way and see what we can apply from those and formulate the goal. That was my point mentioning the aspect of understanding the target audience.
What's worse is, that even though a supermodel is apparently the most flawless of humans, they STILL get airbrushed and tweaked in image editing before they go on a cover.
I find asymmetry more interesting than people who look like Dolly/Vogue magazine step-outs, and I try to incorporate that element into my images.
Also I did a mundane scene once for Gallery, and you're right, it got very few votes which kind of put me off for a while, while the sex kitten got all the votes (of course). I felt like making a satire of that sort of thing, but couldn't be bothered.
Exactly, well said!
Funny title to this thread. There is nothing to get right or wrong with makeup, it's all a matter of preference
I know women that looked like they walked out of the pages of playboy, so to me, that is realistic. Unless my images are for a commission or project, I have zero interest in purchasing products of or rendering images of boring, mundane, 'everyday" looking people, but if that is your thing, more power to you, just please don't complain when others don't share your preferences which seems to be the case more and more.
Funny story, I used to be a rock musician and as such have some pretty bold tastes. My GF is younger than I, and also fairly conservative. I sometimes buy her gifts of items that are a little beyond her tastes, but more in line with mine, with no expectation other than being generous and letting her know i like it and would hope she might wear or use it at some point. Over time she has gotten a little more bold in her fashion and makeup sense and made a comment last month that she does notice that she does get more attention when she is wearing more daring outfits or more alluring makeup when out and about, LOL.
I don't mean to interrupt or anything, but since you no longer remember the name of the cosmetics company or the brand and no longer have a picture of the billboard... Who is to say it was not an advertisement for a new line of Stripper Makeup?
The stripping industry could have their own line of industrial stripper makeup...
Why not?
You probably have tires on your car (sorry if you don't, but I highly recommend it... There are a lot less sparks that way and your rims last a hell of a lot longer... Plus you actually have traction)...
You probably have "regular person" tires on your car right?
Race car drivers don't put "regular people" tires on their race cars... race car drivers use race car tires on their cars...( the race cars, their "regular people cars",they probably put "regular people tires" on)...
I bet if you went around with a pair of Mickey Tompson slicks on your regular car (assuming you don't drive to work in a dragster or formula one car)...(if you do, that's really cool) ... But I bet if you drove around with racing slicks on your car, other guys would look at you and call you a painted whore or floozy behind your back...
No... That's not right...
Okay that was a terrible example of what I was trying to explain...
I'm pretty sure I had a point...
Why were we talking about strippers?
Someone you know is a stripper who drives to work in a dragster?
That doesn't sound right...
You were thinking of becoming a stripper and you were wondering what brand of stripper makeup is the best?
That doesn't sound right either.
When I was younger I worked as a stripper, but the only makeup I used was house paint to cover the bruises from the old biker chicks that would throw beer bottles at me...
I suppose I might have actually made some money if I had actually worked there and not just been running naked through the place...
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure if that was a biker chick bar or just a convent...
Nuns wear black too... It would explain the funny hats...
Probably wasn't a Ninja convent though...
Are there Ninja nuns?
I really wish the thread review button was working so I could find out what the hell this thread was about.
Did you want to know what kind of makeup ninjas wear?
I have have no idea, but if you are thinking of buying a dragster to go to work in... Don't.
They use a lot if gas and you'll go deaf in no time.
I hope this clears up any questions you had about whatever it is that most 3D artists get wrong, I stopped running naked through ninja nun convents long ago... The pay was terrible, the beatings were mostly terrible... Mostly... Some were okay... But after a while, all that having to scale those high walls and it really wasn't worth it.
So yeah, I agree... You shouldn't do that.
Thanks and good bye.
EDITED TO ADD- Wow... That had nothing to do with the original post... Did it?
The thread review button is working fine now.
I been reading threads like this since I first started doing 3D renders...the reality is big boobs and small clothing seems to sell. At least at the stores I've visited. I think it's great that we have in the last few years seen a bit more variety and many characters come with a make up free version. It's all about having choices...the more choice the better.
I like a certain amount of unrealism in my art. While there is certainly nothing wrong with average dudes and gals in art, that is typically not what im going for. When I Render something, I am trying to emphasize a look, action and event, something larger than life. I want the guy with the six pack and the big gun. Sure I might put extras in a scene who look more day to day, but for the most part, the main character will be larger than life, or more than average.
Are there really a lot of characters that don't include a no-makeup option? I seldom see that (at least not here, I rarely look at other stores these days). A lot of times the PROMOS don't include the no-makeup option, but I don't recall there not being that option.
Actually, funny you should mention Ninja Nuns, but recently in my DnD campaign, our group of level one scrubs fought a bunch of Ninja Nuns while trying to escape the King's 'custody' on the pretense of 'training'. We slaughtered a good 12 of them before one finally struck a stun blow on our wizard... by then it was a bit late to realise they weren't actually attacking us... Proves you shouldn't point maces at people anyway (or wizards whose opening gambit is to sleep your Monologuer). Sadly, afterwards we didn't check what makeup they were wearing. It was probably Ninja-y. I think Ninja might wear that eye-band makeup.
Also This: http://www.strangerdimensions.com/2013/11/25/10-creepy-examples-uncanny-valley/
Are there really a lot of characters that don't include a no-makeup option? I seldom see that (at least not here, I rarely look at other stores these days). A lot of times the PROMOS don't include the no-makeup option, but I don't recall there not being that option.
Rawn's latest for Gen3 does...and I have a fair few others that have a natural face without makeup. Maybe it's just the ones I buy...but most of mine seem to have one that is makeup free. I know when I was playing with a character texture recently I had the base without makeup and added to that. Haven't released it yet but it will have the makeup free version. I can't see why they wouldn't...
I just thought most did because of the ones I've bought but then I don't really go for glamour type characters with lots of makeup so maybe that's why most of the ones I have do have a makeup free version. Your comment about other stores may be apt as I haven't bought many Gen2 characters from here so maybe the vendors here don't?
Still think that the more choices the better and I can't see why a vendor wouldn't include a make up free version as it's just a case of saving the texture before applying the makeup...
Usually Raiyas Girls have a No-MakeUp preset included. Just to point out one character: http://www.daz3d.com/naoki-for-v4-and-v5
Raiya was just the first PA coming to my mind, there may be more out there.
... by the way, isn´t a characters default skin always without MakeUp? Apply Skin Texture first, choose MakeUp second?
Ist's not that I would condemn male-up. Everything depends on tue context. But if my heroine goes to war in deep winter, I wish I can give her adäquate clothing, not somesthing wich barely covers a handfull of skin.
That's what I man with realism.
Andi if the heroine is an Innocent young maiden, I need her without male-up. Or with very few male-up.
Oh, they sound cool and all - but wait until you get dragged out at all hours to provide free Vicky-removal services for all of the temples in the diocese.
responding to the OP.
Your wife has a good eye and IMHO she is 100% correct.
For me realism isn't something I set out to do but evolved in to a personal challenge and to date I have only done one that comes close http://itiseyemeeszark.deviantart.com/art/The-Working-Man-Take-2-268297127 but again you can see the flaws. It took me 3 months of solid learning Poser and taking maps in to Photoshop to tweak them. I think that is the key, good realistic maps, diffuse and strength maps and most of all good lighting. When dealing with human figure asymmetry is key. One eye bigger than the other, one breast bigger than the other and so on. Moles, liver spots and scars all play a part to add realism. Realism takes time and dedication to learn the software and to observe surfaces in reality. The hard part is putting those two together.
It's me again... (Sorry)
By the way the OP did have a good point... It's just that I forget what mine is very quickly...
But since I have a few minutes to kill and I got a thread notification which made me look back at this thread... I had some more thoughts on this topic that I thought I might share...
So...
Here is a another thing most people get wrong... Stage makeup.
Did you ever get a close up view of a dancer before they go on stage?
Most dancers have very exaggerated levels of makeup on when they perform...
It's scary actually.
Freakishly scary... Like a colorblind mad scientist did their makeup with a blindfold on.
But unless you are sitting in the very front row, its never really noticeable.
Anyone who has kids who take dance lessons and have a big show at the end of the year probably has seen this shocking display of color and wondered what the hell was wrong with the person who put it on for them.
If you didn't ask for an explanation or only noticed it after the show, trust me, professional dancers do it too and on purpose.
The reason appears to be that if the astronauts on the International Space Station happen to glance down and see them, they don't want to look washed out or sane...
Or something like that.
Nobody ever puts clown makeup on their dancers...
That's pretty much what it looks like.
When I was younger, I dated a dancer and when I saw that for the first time, I thought she had some sort of mental breakdown backstage and was about to go on some kind of killing spree or something.
So if some wise ass (smart donkey) asks or comments on the makeup being too strong or too hookerish and you are like "I don't know what real makeup is supposed to really look like" (but you say that to yourself, not them) you could always use the stage makeup (or stripper defense).
Or ever the "she just suffered a mental breakdown and is about to go on a killing spree" explanation.
Honestly makeup rules are a female thing... With most males... unless you sell cosmetics or tastefully cross dress, most guys are clueless about what is "wrong" with a woman's makeup until it approaches killer clown levels...
And even then no way are you gonna bring that up... It's not like most guys turn to their pals and say "did you see that hot blonde over there... The one with Pennywise's makeup"...
Wrong or poor makeup choice is usually not a deal breaker anyway, unless you feel there may be some level of risk to your life... And even then it's iffy.
My wife and most women I've known are always commenting on weird makeup on other women...
They spot that stuff like hawks spot mice in a field (especially mice with bad makeup)...
Wife or girlfriend: "Did you see her?"
Random guy: (mentally: Aaak! She saw me looking!) "... Um... who?"
Wife or girlfriend: "The woman in the red halter top with the raccoon eyes"
Random guy: (mentally: what's a halter? Is she talking about the old lady in the sweater or the big boobied chick with the low neck line?... They were both blonde... Wait... No, old ladies have white hair.... What are raccoon eyes?... ) "um... No... I was admiring your reflection in the shop window... What was wrong?"
Wife or girlfriend: "Nothing, she had too much eyeliner on"...
Random guy: (Phew! Nailed it!) "Oh, I see... "
Fact is most guys don't notice makeup, or even hair... Maybe a lack of hair... But bad makeup hardly ever registers.
It's not that guys are pigs... Most are... Not me... I'm a refined gentleman, but it's just that most of us don't wear makeup or compete with each other to see who looks the most natural wearing a coating of unnatural creams, pastes and colorings, so none of use really keep up with makeup trends or receive the newsletters.
It's a lady thing and we don't really care what you do with it unless it becomes obviously frightening... We are mostly fine with whatever rules and regulations you come up with in those secret meeting you attend in the restrooms at restaurants...
That is what you all are doing when nine of you go to the bathroom at once... Right?
That or the stalls are really flimsy and you all get together to hold them up while you take turns using the toilet.
I really don't know, it's just a guess... I'm mostly afraid to ask, but it seems to be important because you leave all your husbands and boyfriends behind at once and expect us not to have started a fire or be brawling across tables when you come out.
Really, what the hell are you thinking...
I'm getting away from my point again...
I think it probably had to do with excuses for not getting makeup right when someone mentions it and you are not being paid large sums of money to create a truly fashionable and non stripper appearance on your characters...
Here are some you can try...
1- She's a stripper (we covered that earlier).
2- It's stage makeup.
3- I recently had eye surgery and my cat helped me with the render while my eyes healed.
4a- ( male ) I'm a guy and therefor clueless as to these matters.
4b- ( female ) The character is expressing her individuality and mocking society's expectations of female beauty.
5- What? The product description said that the makeup options were timeless, sultry and exotic!? How can that be... My trust has been broken!
6- Everyone else was doing it, why are you picking on me?
Not that any of this was a solution to this crisis, but I'm waiting around for someone and had fifteen minutes to waste while writing this, so i figured I'd interrupt again and try and help out by not being at all helpful.
I personally try not to use any makeup options on any characters I use, because I know I'm stupid and have poor taste, but I figure if someone is really interested in doing such things right they should really study good examples of correct or tasteful makeup, and base it on that... If you are in doubt, ask someone who is rumored to have taste or knowledge of this subject... Otherwise...
You have six or so excuses listed above to try out.
Well, thank you for your time... I hope I did not offend anyone, especially if they wear horrible clown makeup regularly, there is nothing wrong with that, everyone needs a hobby...
Or something like that... Whatever... I will try and not interrupt this thread anymore with my nonsense.
Have a great day!
Oh, they sound cool and all - but wait until you get dragged out at all hours to provide free Vicky-removal services for all of the temples in the diocese.rofl...too true, it would definitely ruin the whole vibe!
Ninja Nuns don't wear makeup. But they do wear leather :P