"Other" Software Discussions
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It would be wise to avoid any discussion of your fellow forum members, no matter how factual or rational. Such discussion is irrelevant to the technical subject at hand and a violation of the TOS.
I doubt you really intend to say that, since prohibiting any reference to fellow forum members would pretty much render this forum mute... :) :)
In any case, I think we're again straying from the intent of the thread...
What is acceptable discussion in terms of other software ?
Perhaps criticism of software is seen as threatening because some people think it can turn new users away and therefore make company less interested in further development or even decrease revenue for some content developers, which (if that is the case) is far away from truth IMO :cheese:
You really think so? :) :)
So why would the same folks gladly discuss the fact that the latest G3/V7 content offerings don't work in Carrara? Isn't that sure to turn away new users?
said no one in the history of this forum, ever.
So... how should we answer someone who is arguing non-existent viewpoints against phantom straw men?
I'm starting to understand why you've repeatedly described yourself as confused. :)
Wrong - as I have tried to demonstrate with more than one example in this thread, one can compare software features without ever making generalizations about the users.
If you don't want what constitutes offensive to be the topic, stop referring to it.
Again, if you read what I actually posted, the point of this thread is to understand responses like this:
“we don’t really need to be told ‘oh Carrara is old hat - another program can do all these things, and is much better, therefore Carrara is worthless/behind the times etc.”
“I fail to see why some people are actually posting in this forum about what Carrara is lacking and what other programs can do that Carrara doesn’t, after all this is a Carrara Forum”
These reference a rational, detailed discussion of Carrara vs. some other software. Clearly, people were offended by a rational discussion of features between Carrara and another platform. No discussion, whatsoever, of individuals.
That, once again, is my question. NOTHING to do with forum members or references to forum members. ONLY regarding what people find acceptable when discussing, rationally, Carrara and other software. That's it.
You really think so? :) :)
So why would the same folks gladly discuss the fact that the latest G3/V7 content offerings don't work in Carrara? Isn't that sure to turn away new users?
Well, that's not Carrara's fault, lol, Carrara is doing just "fine", therefore, it must be that content is faulty :-P
To follow diomede's recommendation, in order to make this a bit less hostile and offensive and at odds with the intent of the TOS, perhaps you could have worded it differently.
Perhaps something like: "I realize there might be some inconsistencies in how software discussions are received by the members, but from my perspective I think we should use the following guidelines when doing a rational discussion of Carrara and other software: ......."
:) :)
Sorry, Joe. I guess we have a failure to communicate.
If the topic of the thread is the criteria for discussing non-Carrara programs on the forum, and critiquing Carrara without offending people, I have done all I can.
I gave you an actual example of rephrasing something to not be seen as offensive without losing any substantive points. I also gave you sample sentence structure for critiquing 2 software programs, in contrast to a sentence structure that offends people.
I guess you will keep making generalizations about Carrara users. I will keep excerpting them in quotes and asking you to make your points without making generalizations about Carrara users. You will then mistakenly attribute my objection to your statements as overprotection of Carrara as a program. All this despite myriads of threads which compare specific features of Carrara to specific features of other programs. In some of these threads, I have been the person criticizing Carrara, for example, detailing a more efficient way in Poser rather than Carrara.
Thanks for trying. Really.
BTW - this is what you actually wrote.
I was trying to help distinguish perceived attacks on software from perceived attacks on people. Guess we couldn't have a meeting of the minds.
Clearly. :)
Please understand, I am NOT criticizing you, or discounting what you said. Whatsoever. But this thread is NOT about me characterizing forum members about whether they'd be surprised at how cards are used professionally. I already get that, though I'll never really understand it I suppose.
For the umpteenth time, I am NOT discussing other forum members WHATSOEVER. For some reason that subject keeps being injected into this discussion.
All I'm looking for is this:
A forum consensus on what is acceptable in discussions of other software
Also, I hope people can understand....
I posted two quotes from two members who SEEMED to be a bit miffed/unhappy/upset/whatever at the discussion of Carrara vs. the other software, even though it was, at least IMO, quite rational and factual.
Again, here are the quotes:
“we don’t really need to be told ‘oh Carrara is old hat - another program can do all these things, and is much better, therefore Carrara is worthless/behind the times etc.”
“I fail to see why some people are actually posting in this forum about what Carrara is lacking and what other programs can do that Carrara doesn’t, after all this is a Carrara Forum”
In any case, it seemed fairly obvious that they did not want to hear that type of discussion. I apologize if saying that was an offensive characterization, but my only purpose is to, in the future, avoid discussions like that if the consensus here is they don't want to hear it.
I'm just trying to figure out what will and will not offend or upset the majority of forum members when it comes to software discussions.
Frameworks for comparing Carrara to other programs have been offered several times in this thread.
I understand that. But as I said, I'm looking for a FORUM CONSENSUS, if that's possible. A couple of opinions does not make a consensus. I think you'll agree that there is a wide range of responses to these discussions, and I'd like to get a full range of responses.
Thanks for your input.
EDIT: Everyone, please chime in at your convenience.
First let me address the above statement, and what others have tried to point out - I would surmise that often it's not the criticism of Carrara that is at the root of why people get defensive, but the associated comments where the knowledge and intelligence of the community members at large are are called into question. This immediately puts people in a defensive stance.
I think the statement above, with the associated assumptions - especially when it includes the portion of the statement I put in bold type, is an excellent example of what people are trying to point out. It's not the facts, it's the presentation with the associated assumptions and generalizations with regard to the forum community here (which typically are not facts)
You know very little about me, other than what you can derive from what I post on this forum, and my gallery here. As a matter of fact, due to my position(s) in real life, I actually take great care to insure very little about who/what I am in real life can be determined from my activities here. I would guess that your actual knowledge of the real person behind their forum presence for most others here is quite minimal as well.
With the statement I placed in bold, when you say that it is "a rational supposition, that is actually a fact for a large portion (or majority, or even ALL members)" you are making unfounded generalizations about knowledge that you believe you have about all forum posters (the key word here being believe). When making that statement you had no idea that I started using billboards, splats, or what ever you want to call them, over 20 years ago for 3D visualization. So, with your statement you did actually insult my knowledge and intelligence, because I consider this to be one of the most rudimentary and low tech cheats that has been used for decades. I also feel most people who have done 3D for a while not only know about them, but have used them extensively (anyone who has used the DAZ Cyclorama has used billboards).
_______________________________________________
Now on to the primary subject of the thread. I don't mind discussions about other software. and rather enjoy them. I would be quite happy to see some posts about how Blender could be used with Carrara (for example the great fluid sims Orion_UK imported into Carrara for the Carrara for Octane Demo reel).
With regard to discussions about plugins, external render engines for Carrara, and applications that help with Carrara (video editing, image editing, etc.) - of course we need that kind of information. Just like the big apps (Maya, 3DS Max, Lightwave, etc.), plugins extend the native capabilities of Carrara, and it's important for users to know about them. Again, just like the big apps, extenal render engines are a great way to extend the capabilities of Carrara, and can be very important to the Carrara user base, just like all of the external render engines are very important for Maya. Would Maya have such a prominent place in the 3D industry without the external render engines it has access too (like PRman, Maxwell, Vray, etc)?
But, starting off a discussion about other programs with something like "Carrara is decades behind the times" probably is not the best way to go (which clearly is not a statement of fact - but an opinion). The fact is that when Eovia sold Carrara (in 2006), they were adding features found in the big boys at an amazing rate, and some of the features (like hair) were only available in some other applications via plugins (and some not at all). So saying Carrara is decades behind is bound to be met with some objection, where a statement like "Carrara is falling behind the curve in area xxx, but software xyz has this capability and here is how it can be used to supplement Carrara's short falls".
Just my 2 cents, which is probably worth about 0.0002 cents, so feel free to totally disregard this entire post.
Thanks dustrider...you always have intelligent input...
I think the "decades behind the times" is pretty factual if you think about it. If you take the list of features I posted that are existing elsewhere, but not in Carrara today, the time it would take, if they started today, to implement all of them, would be many, many, many years. And that's assuming they hire a full staff just devoted to new Carrara features. In practice, I believe, DAZ actually has their staff of developers, even in the best of times, bounce back and forth between D|S and Carrara and the others as conditions dictate. So there is not, nor has there been, a dedicated staff for Carrara. Though I could be wrong...
Seriously, just look at ONE app with, say, a fluid sim, and look at how long it took to finalize that feature. Many years. And that's just ONE feature. DAZ couldn't even implement a FULLY FUNCTIONAL Bullet dynamics software after all of these years.
I'm not criticizing Carrara. Just stating the state of the art and the facts. Or at least rational opinion..
Would you mind to elaborate please, i'm really not trying to nit pick here, I honestly do not remember any new (worthy of mentioning) features added at that time ... :question:
Of course. We know nothing about each other.
But the point is this: if someone tells me I know nothing about the VFX business, for example, I know the truth. And I dismiss what they say. Simple.
I don't get offended by their lack of knowledge. Take the best, and dismiss the rest.
So if someone generalizes that *most* people in this forum don't have experience in a certain area, and the *MOST* part is true, why not just dismiss if it doesn't apply to you?
I guess understand that some people can't dismiss it, and get offended. And I'll try to watch in the future any discussions of other forum members.
Would you mind to elaborate please, i'm really not trying to nit pick here, I honestly do not remember any new (worthy of mentioning) features added at that time ... :question:
Here is the history (thanks to Ringo) from C2 to C5 http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/27130/P46
C6 was released by DAZ, but I believe it was primarily developed by the Eovia team since it was released very soon after DAZ acquired it . C6 introduced Dynamic Hair and native Poser figure support, but I don't remember what else was new/improved (some enhancements to the vertex modeler I think).
Of course. We know nothing about each other.
But the point is this: if someone tells me I know nothing about the VFX business, for example, I know the truth. And I dismiss what they say. Simple.
I don't get offended by their lack of knowledge. Take the best, and dismiss the rest.
So if someone generalizes that *most* people in this forum don't have experience in a certain area, and the *MOST* part is true, why not just dismiss if it doesn't apply to you?
I guess understand that some people can't dismiss it, and get offended. And I'll try to watch in the future any discussions of other forum members.
I'm really not offended Joe :roll: But things like this will offend people. You'll just have to trust me on this one - I've had to deal with sensitive subjects in public forums many times, choosing your words carefully and not using general characterizations of the group(s) knowledge or desires can be the difference between a successful outcome and a near riot :gulp:
I'm happy to volunteer to help Joe as well, and in fact I think it would be great if the whole Carrara community could pull together to help him out. It seems evident that the poor guy honestly doesn't realize it when he unintentionally insults the Carrara forum members as a whole, by attributing negative attributes in sweeping generalities. I think we all need to reach out, with love, to help correct him by gently pointing out every unintentional insult each time it happens, so that Joe can have the opportunity to apologize to those he potentially offends, retract his unintended insults and generally learn better communication skills.
Joe, I'm here for you buddy. Don't feel bad; we all make mistakes. Some of us just need a little more help, that's all.
Yes, I've often thought that we need a buddy system here on this forum. That's a great idea Jon. I think it would foster a great sense of community, which is what we all want.
A great sense of Carrara community.
I'll help too!
How sweet and sarcastic... :) :)
Another approach might be for some forum members to accept that they have some room to mature, and learn to accept things in a positive manner...Take the best, discard the rest.
Really, it might be a good lesson to learn. And it will minimize those times you get unnecessarily hurt and offended by others.
It's a lesson that has helped me a lot over the years. In spite of the constant negative energy directed at me in this forum, I still have no hard feeings against anyone here.
When I started out many years ago in the professional world, one of the first and most critical lessons you learn in the creative field is the ability to accept criticism and deal with it. And I'm talking about REAL criticism, where people actually say stuff like "this thing you did sucks !!"
Not meant to be sarcastic. I think that you give the community a great sense of unity.
And you have made us aware of many things -,that Carrara is way out of date, that there is some amazing software out there that Carrara just cannot keep up with, that most of us are amateurs and cannot hope to keep up with the pros you have spent your life around.
You even pointed us towards that new software "Blander".
I think that you have done the Carrara community a wonderful service in pointing all those things out.
So thank you.
Good idea...I'll start.
This post you made was intended to be offensive to me, correct?
"....how should we answer someone who is arguing non-existent viewpoints against phantom straw men? I’m starting to understand why you’ve repeatedly described yourself as confused."
Here's your chance to do as you suggest....apologize, and retract your intended insults.
In any case, in yet another attempt to steer this discussion back on to the ISSUES, and not as everyone seems to prefer, the PERSONALITIES and EMOTIONS...
Does anyone have any input on the thread topic?
As this discussion seems to have become circular and continues to revolve around personalities rather than anything technically or artistically useful, we are locking the thread.