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Doh, you're right. Sorry for interrupting.
I want to emphasize your reference of used for 'lighting only'.
There are "HDR" packs you can download with hi res HDR images, a tonemapped JPG and a "low res lighting image".
Hi rez-HDR is good for lighting but also if you need good reflections on your metals.
a low-res lighting image is terrible for any reflections, but it acts as the environment 'fill'/bounce light. Great if your image doesnt have any mirror-like surfaces, and it also helps decrease render time.
haven't found a use for the tonemapped jpg other than perhaps to drop in as the background...
Thanks, that helps clarify what the HDR is doing. In part it is telling Iray what to reflect of metal surfaces.
As you can tell, I am impatient. after 43 mins, I cancelled it. Lots of noise left. This is due to insufficient lighting.
( 1 small flame prop set as an emissive at 15w 2000temp )
Ok, umm - thats not what we were discussing though. I thought you were doing a render of that scene in the box with no light source other than Environment Intensity for light, to show me that it works in Scene Only mode?
I know how to do emissives and tone-mapping... its the Environment Intensity slider in Scene Only mode that I'm wondering about.
I'm confused...
If you're trying to light a room with one light then that light will have to be very bright. And you'll deal with the age-old problem of a hot source and dim light in the shadows. In the "tone mapping" (whatever that means) there are standard photo controls for ISO, F-stop and Shutter speed. These might help.
One thing to keep in mind...
In Iray you can use IES profiles on your lights. These are actual data that describe exactly how a light will behave. This way you can do things like pick the type of bulb that single 100W equivalent bulb is.
Khory, if you did a little more to that, like attach an IES profile for like a CFL/LED bulb, it would look even more 'right'. As it is, that's pretty darn close to what you should expect a room to look like with a single 100 W equivalent bulb...especially if you drop the ceiling to the more or less 'standard' 8 feet.
Ok, umm - thats not what we were discussing though. I thought you were doing a render of that scene in the box with no light source other than Environment Intensity for light, to show me that it works in Scene Only mode?
I know how to do emissives and tone-mapping... its the Environment Intensity slider in Scene Only mode that I'm wondering about.
I'm confused...
scene only mode needs at least 1 light or emissive surface to render anything ( not an env map )
that was my 1st test, 2nd test is coming w/ different env. intensity setting. haven't posted followup yet ( still going, but honestly I see ZERO difference with it changed... I wonder if they just forgot to hide this particular dial when changing the env. type
IES profile examples: https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Rendering/LightingAndShadows/IESLightProfiles/index.html
So my experience is that env. intensity has no effect on the render if environment mode is set to 'scene only'
Khory, if you did a little more to that, like attach an IES profile for like a CFL/LED bulb, it would look even more 'right'. As it is, that's pretty darn close to what you should expect a room to look like with a single 100 W equivalent bulb...especially if you drop the ceiling to the more or less 'standard' 8 feet.
Thanks Khory - you make a good point about room size. Perhaps its just my eye though but I still think that for a small room with white-ish walls, ceiling and floor those shadows on her unlit side are too dark to be realistic. They're even darker than mine were, which is probably due to the lighting levels and tone mapping settings we were both using. I was on SS 16, f/stop 8, ISO 400 - no idea what strength the light was at.
Oh, ok. Well phew then! At least I don't have to reinstall DS :)
Thanks for confirming it. As I mentioned before, assuming no gaps or windows in the box, you'll also find that Environment Intensity has no effect within the cube even if the mode is dome and scene, dome only, or sun-sky. It simply can't be used inside a closed geometric interior - which is why skydomes no longer work right.
I did find a bizarre quirk when rendering with the dome. absolutely nothing in scene except default Camera.
Here are my settings ( and also here's a env. intensity example for those curious how it works )
now onto the issue at hand.... setting a scene up. reality vs. practicality! I've found I struggle to want to be as 'real' as possible, but then I realize that my expectation of realism is failing me. Time to be practical.
Iray is a Photoreal render engine and not what we see with our eyes so you need to be a photographer and learn about real world camera settings i.e. Tone Mapping. Set up your lights as per real world settings, either Watts and Lumen Efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy or Lumen Output https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit) and Kelvin scale (colour temp) http://www.seesmartled.com/kb/choosing_color_temperature/ then set your Tone Mapping.
Added to this nearly all photographers add additional fill lights. I use an emissive Plane, big soft shadows, small sharp shadows.
The night image below as the table lamps set up as 40 w GLS (tungsten Filament) lamp and the candles set to 25 lumens, should be 12 but I had to compensate for the size of the mesh. Added to this I had two mesh light plane behind, either side of the camera. Can't remember what the Tone mapping but ISO was at 3200.
The daytime render relies purely on Tone mapping and use the Sun/Sky mode, using the Sun Dial for the Sun's position. Tone Mapping ISO was at 1600 and again without looking (which I can't as I am rendering) I cannot remember what the other tone mapping setting were.
You don't need tone mapping ISO that extreme if you drop shutter speed and/or f/stop down really low.
HDRIs or Sun/Sky will not work for a totally enclosed room in Iray or any other unbiased render engine like we can in 3delight.
Yeah, I'm a real stickler for trying to root everything in reality, which is why I always use emissives rather than free floating spot or point lights - because I want each light in the scene to have a proper source; not just floating in mid-air.
But you're right; time to be practical. The "single light room" set is probably just a pipe-dream.
So my follow-up question is: Does anyone have any good tips for how to blend shadows together in a room with multiple lights? :)
Ah - you caught me just as I was giving up ;) Thanks Pete - The day-time render is especially interesting to me. Is that purely just sun-sky lighting? I tried something similar with a room that had skylights and I got a really nice image like yours with just sun-sky light. However, as soon as I dropped a figure into the room, facing away from the light, they were in proper darkness again.
Could you do me a favour please and put a figure into that scene, somewhere between the bed and the camera, and render it to see how well lit they are?
I can when I get time but I am rendering work related promos at the moment. And that image took over a day to render as I can only render using CPU.
There is another thing that has been mentioned here and that is surfaces. In order for realistic results every surface needs to be set up right so it reacts with the lighting like they should. Surfaces are more important in unbiased render engines than say 3delight. Even though I say surfaces and lighting are key in any render engine just more so in Iray etc.
Ah, no worries then - didn't realise it was such a big task. My renders have been taking about 15mins each these days :)
Yeah I'm gonna have to play around with the surface settings a bit more I think, see if I can nudge up the reflections.
As soon as I get time I will have a play. Been meaning to add a character to this scene. Those renders have been set up so the surfaces are inline (well as best I can get with the Metal/roughness Iray shader) with real world surfaces so light bounces around.
Did you turn down the sun intensity for the day-time shot? At ISO 1600 I would've thought the sun rays would've looked really intense...
Nope left it at the default but I did add Haze at 5.00 to give the orange tint which can mute the sun.
Ah right, yeah I see. Thats whats doing it. Good idea.
Thanks I find it better than trying to change the sky colour
render settings
time: 1hr 50 min
iterations: 7200
% completion: 7%
environment mode: sun-sky only - sun position - 6:00 pm 3/10/2015
dome mode: finite sphere
everything else on defaults
tone mapping settings:
ISO: 400
shutter speed: 1/60
f-stop: 2.0
Iray uber shader added to everything in the scene including skin. (except maybe the dress)
The most interesting thing for me was the discovery that render settings can be adjusted AFTER the render is underway. This render was over 60 minutes in, when I realized it wasn't going to be anywhere near completion by the time the default settings were reached' (5000 samples, 7200 sec)
But I remembered someone (earlier in this thread..sorry, can't remember the name) mentioning that tone mapping settings could be adjusted after the render was started. On the render window, (where the image is slowly completing) there is a tiny handle on the left side.
This twirls open to reveal many settings, not just tone mapping: max samples, time, and others. I was able to increase the render time and samples without starting over.
Earlier, at around the 15 minute mark, I didn't like the ISO setting, so I was able to adjust it from 800 to 400. Couldn't change the position of the fingers though...buried in the dress.
I was experimenting with skin settings, but I like this result. No air conditioning in the 1800s. Victoria is thinking she will be melting at the ball in this dress...
Just applying Uber Iray shader doesn't do this set justice. :P See how everything is too glossy, even the rug. Yes I see you are experimenting but you do need to adjust the mats manually to give better results. Something to work on.:) The light looks fine though.
Thats interesting dhmohr, thanks. Shes getting a lot of light on her non-exposed side. Is the sun your only light source in that image? Everything else is coming from reflective surfaces?
Maybe I should stop trying make this cargo bay scene work and switch to a set with windows instead :)
yeah, I didn't adjust anything...just threw the uber shader on, and called it a go. I was more interested in the effect of the light source on the exposure level of the model than anything else.
(I really liked the render you did last week, Szark. Went and bought the set myself to play with, since I had your results to compare with.)
I guess if we want "excellent" results, we're not going to get them with the default settings. I only have a low end GeForce card. You can see an example of my render times. Just under 2 hours to get to 7%. Who can afford that much time to tweak settings?
tl155180 said:
Yes, the sun is the only light source for this one. But there are at least 2 more windows that the sun is shining through. Victoria is facing sun on the furniture similar to what is behind her from 2 more windows on the opposite side of the bed. To get her decently exposed, I had to blow out the highlights in the background...something we wouldn't have to do with portrait style lighting. The background is over-exposed in order to get the subject properly exposed.
Happens a lot in photography.
Szark set this scene up to demonstrate...something..I forget what...and I really liked it. His can be seen at: (scroll down...post #710)
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/53695/P705
David
EDIT: Here's a quick 15 min render to show the flip side.
btw..this set is "Rosemill Moor" and the expansion.
I can only render CPU so that daytime image took over 24 hours.
dhmohr
Why does she have a face on her posterior ;-)