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I agree - I too have lots of G8 stuff and I assume PAs at Rendo will continue to make new stuff for G8 if there is a market (as they did with V4). However, some of the customer base (including myself) are disinclined to climb aboard the G9 train so we will probably save a lot of our DAZ Store budget waiting for a new figure that is actually a significant improvement over the existing offerings.
Maybe return the bundle and just keep the morph packs?.. won't be that long until Vicky is 50,60,70% off.
I am back on the G9 train but I do want to comment on the topology debate.
Edge loops.
For people who keep saying topology is not a problem, or G9 is not HD based, just remember the words edge loops.
The torso core of G9 is a flat grid. The default has no edge loops outlining the main features of the human mid-musculature or rib cage. On the one hand it makes sense because optimal topology would be a little different for a male vs female torso. And the density is convenient for sculptors wishing to explore extreme shapes. On the other hand, shaping and bending (weightmapping, JCMs) are more difficult than necessary given the total number of polygons. It is inefficient compared to a mesh known to be destined for a physically fit adult human. There are no current edge loops lining the major features of the body, like the oval of the stomach or the ridge of the lower ribcage. Or the navel.
A common reply is that the grid-like topology and consistent density are better for sculptors. Um, OK. But you are saying it is better for creators using external software, not for Daz Studio users. Yes, you are saying that. Sure, once hobbyists purchase the support morphs, joint corrections, and textures, then the suboptimal default topology will actually be an advantage because then I will get to play with all those cool creatures and monsters by RawArt, Joe Quick, OSO, etc.
Yes. Yes, I like cool creatures by RawArt, Joe Quick, and Oso. So good for me. I am on the train. Yay. Looking forward to rendering monstrous adventures.
But it is not correct to deny that the default topology is suboptimal compared to two meshes: one designed for fit adult males and one designed for fit adult females. People who focus on the vast majority of the day to day human representation that we see portrayed (fit human adults) have a point.
Compare this topology guide on creating your own figure torso for males and females in Blender to the Genesis 9 torso.
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well I think it will be (and is in my short experience ) awesome for clothed figures
...and therein is the rub. I've already seen G9 content in Daz+ items (I wouldn't be surprised to see G9 content as a Daz+ freebie now and then). Fortunately G8 had a long shelf life (about twice that of any previous Genesis version) and for now is still somewhat supported.
Mada very generously opened a thread for questions on clothing for Genesis 9. Great resource. One of the reasons I am back on the G9 train is making some custom clothing, and maybe using Philemo's hair to mesh plugin.
Thank you, Mada. See Mada clothing thread here. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/597726/genesis-9-clothing-questions-answers/p1
Where are we on those hair autofits for G9?
Diomede:
If you aren't sculpting, then how does the difficulties of the topology affect you? Honestly confused what you are trying to say.
Also, re: JCMs... having a relatively grid mesh torso REALLY helps with torso JCMs. With G8, trying to do JCMs on the torso was tricky because smoothing near the nipples or navel tended to distort rapidly. So you have to keep remembering where the lines are supposed to be and extrapolate a bit. And oof, smooth brush and ovals? A MESS.
Well, we can NEVER reach a consensus.
Some of those who pose G9 with shoulders and limbs exposed might still don't like how joints bend even if the joint correctives are turned on.
For those who don't sculpt or have mediocre sculpting techniques at best, and those who don't create contents, they might not like the topology.
For those with limited budgets, they might not like the idea of buying geografts if they wish to reach the level of realism they want.
I myself won't regard those folks as having the 'h***rs gonna h***' attitude. We won't be affected by what others say at this point, as we all already had our own verdict on G9.
No, because the final opinion is based on customers buy, whose behavior we don't know and is not necessarily similar to the opinions in the forum.
@Diomede Nice example and explanation.
@Daywalker G9 is HD based because the base mesh is designed for sculpting, as opposed to G3-G8 that's designed to work fine with the base mesh having a good topology.
@marble It is probably true that the shop is going to support only G9, but personally I don't think this matters too much. Honestly, with every genesis generation I see the shop proposing mostly the same content again and again, just converted. Truth is, the DAZ shop is already exceptionally large and of good overall quality so there's little space for real nice news.
The problem is not "Daz changing their mind" but what customers will buy.
As previous base figure releases have proven several times already, after a while the majority of the customers buys content for the new figure only unless there's a huge discount. So making content for older figures is not cost effective anymore for vendors.
Think about it: as a vendor, assuming you need the same amount of time to create a product for either figure, which one will you spend you time on? Unless you create content for fun and don't depend on the income, the answer will be "the one which has the higher sales potential so I can pay my bills".
On topology and edge loops. - Reply to Oso3D but really a clarification for people less advanced than Oso3D.
Why do vintage modelers emphasize edge loops? Recall the picture of the G9 torso mesh does not have any edge loops outlining the oval stomach musculature on the front of the human torso, nor does it have edge loops for the lower border of the rib cage. Instead it has a flat grid. As a result, if one were to just shrink wrap the base torso to a slim and healthy adult human, the edges of the grid do not line up with the edges of the rib cage or stomach oval. It may still look OK depending on how dense the mesh is, which subdivision can aid, but major features would be dependent on internal deformation of squares, not outlines by edge loops. (See attached pic). However, that is inefficient if you know ahead of time that the shape you want has an oval stomach and a slope for the lower rib cage. The same shape could be achieved with fewer polygons, less subdivision, less strain on computer resources. In practice, people who struggle to have 3 or 4 Daz figures in a scene could have 7 or 8 if the mesh was more efficient.
Other examples of issues include several joints. There have been complaints about rubbery joints reminiscient of V4 and M4. Some of that is due to JCMs being occasionally deactivated, a bug which I am sure will be fixed (Thank you, Mada, for monitoring the forums and helping diagnose and solve that problem for users). But another part of the issue comes from poor edge flow of the mesh in the joints. If the edge loops better matched human skeletal and musculature structure then the rigging and weightmapping would have better results and there would be less need for morph fixes like JCMs.
I have used the word 'vintage' in the term vintage modelers to try to signal that I know Daz believes the mesh of G9 is a step forward, not backward. Daz3D is well aware of the points I have made about edge flow, and consciously chose the G9 mesh as is. One possible good reason to do so would be a decision to rely more on mesh density and sculpting to define shape than selecting and manipulating individual edge loops.
Just clarification. I am on the Genesis 9 train. I have had occasion to dabble in ZBrush and similar. Looking forward to the people who open ZBrush for the first time and who can't figure out why they can only replicate a seemingly infinite number of spheres instead of sculpting the starting sphere. :)
At this point the Genesis 9 train looks like it's full steam ahead.
It's a great model and all and I really have no problem with it from a design standpoint. I'm just not looking forward to spending more $$$ on G9 products when I've already filled my library to the brim with 8 and 8.1.
The thing that I reallllllllllllllly want more than anything right now is backwards compatibility on clothing/hair/poses. That will definitely lessen the sting on my wallet. We have the G3/G8 > G9 pose converter now how about a G9 > G8 pose converter or a clothing converter from G8 > G9 and vice versa. I've also heard that the bones are different between the older Genesis 3/8 and the new 9 model but maaaaan it would also be great to get some character converters in there as well.
Crossing my fingers for RiverSoftArt to come through for me...
I was on the hype train initially. Then I got off.
If you look at Genesis 9 in isolation, it's perfectly fine.
But from my art creator's perspective, Genesis 9 is a bad product when in direct comparison to Genesis 8 and I'd say also Genesis 3. It offers no benefits over those figures. It is objectively worse in everyway except a little more detail around the eyes and lips.
Maybe, after you buy many addons, it would indeed be better, but then, why should we pay more or work harder to get the same results?
Now that said, I can't speak from a PAs perspective or a modeler. Perhaps for them, it's genuinely superior.
I thinik G9 is great for what I do.I'm not a clothing maker, morph creator, or anything else. I just grab a figure, slap on some clothes, hair, and light up the scene .. viola. I cannot justify or afford going all out on this G9 when I have already so much invested in earlier versions. M9 is pretty darn good looking, versatile in the face and body. Some new morphs came out as well today, but my wallet is empty.
There is a right time and place for doing edge loops to define a specific shape in any model, but Genesis 9 is a canvas to be built on top of, and it's mesh is the way it is to allow more creative freedom to those who build on it. From the start, the Genesis figures were meant to be a multi-use figure that could be 1001 different people of all shapes and sizes. So lets say the stomach area is defined for muscles, then morphing it into a pregnant belly or someone who is very heavy set becomes a problem as you have to sculpt out the detailed areas. But doing a well toned body who is fit is much easier in this example. Where as in the case of Genesis 9, with the mesh the way is it, is much easier to sculpt the body into either.
It is hard to see the merits of the new figure very early on and no one knows what kind of addons we will see for it compared to previous generations. As an end user, I'm still going to render all my favorite characters I already have dialed up for Genesis 3 and 2.
From a PA perspective, though I dont do figure sculpting, or make clothes and hair, I can see the merits from the creators stand point.
This is something I don't understand, how does the topology make it any easier or harder to sculpt?
Ok, I don't have ZBrush or any other heavy duty professional sculpting tools, just Blender in which I have done morphs for my private use (also the pregnant morph) and I can't see how the G9 topology would make it any easier or the G8/G8.1 topology make it any harder, when talking about the character still being somewhat human and not being transformed into a mailbox.
In my eyes the G9 topology makes it harder because of the missing hints about the location of the details
It certainly is. Who knows what PAs will do to improve it. I do find for myself however, the "out-of-box" experience is a step back compared to how G8 and G3 and perhaps G2 where (though I don't remember G2 as much). But as you alluded to in your previous post, I think G9 was build more for the sculpters than end-users.
From my extremely limited time scultping G8 in Blender, one thing that I noticed would have been beneficial for sculpting is a more detailed, "tighter" mesh. G9 appears to be an improvement in some areas, and a step back in others as far as that goes. But of course I'm a novice in that area,
PerttiA: Good question!
Consider the favorite topic, nipples. What if you want a character with nipples in a different position? In G8, one would think 'oh, I'll just pull the mesh over here.' And at that point... all your clothing gets distorted horribly. Woops.
What if you want four+ nipples? Well, only one pair might have edge loops, hrm.
Also, if you've ever used a smooth brush around looped nipples/navels/etc, oy. The topology gets distorted super fast and you have to keep correcting.
'missing hints'... well, what I do is have Daz Studio open with wireframe so I know 'the male nipple is around that square' and eyeball it on the zbrush (or Blender or whatever) mesh. It's not super hard.
There's nothing "wrong" using sculpting aka HD instead of topology. But you can plan a base mesh with a flexible topology to cover more cases from thin to muscular to fat as G3-G8, though as you say you'll have to smooth the details out depending on the case. The difference is that HD requires a high level of subdivision so it's heavy on the hardware, while topology uses the base mesh. Also HD models are much harder to export with full functionality. Not to mention that the HD toolkit is only available to PAs. That's why personally I dislike the G9 HD design.
Usually you first try to use topology then revert to HD when topology is not enough. With G9 you go straight to HD.
Ok, thank you Oso3D for explaining, but.. When still talking about somewhat human figure, although the G9 topology allows one to place the nipple where ever one wants or make ones own breasts on the chest the way one likes, that also means we are going to see figures where the textures are not interchangeable (nipples in wrong place) and the created details may not be compatible with morphs created by DAZ, PA's or other people because 1) everybody can place the details where ever one wants and 2) even when one doesn't mean to use a different location, again the mesh doesn't provide guides to where the "standard" details are located.
The thing is that so many people are obsessing about HD but the best way to sculpt is to sculpt on the base and go until you can't go any further. You can then decide if you need to go up in resolution or create an option for a normal map, or some other avenue. There was an example of the muscular morph posted way back in the thread by the creator (that was sculpted on the base res) and it was ignored. Additionally, there are landmark maps that are provided to all that can guide the user in creating new content for those that are missing the topology.
The cleaner mesh allows for better bends and better folding of clothes, etc. (as I understand it). It also allows for more adventurous sculpts snce you no longer have to fight that nipple geometry when trying to create something other than mammalian, etc.
This is why landmark maps were included with the figure-- so the "normal" placement of body landmarks like nipples would remain consistent.
I'm not a pro modeler by any stretch, but I disagree with you here.
Moving the nipples? How much you gonna move them? Of course if you use a small brush you have a heavy displacement over a small area, you need a bigger brush and/or displace a larger area of the mesh. If I read you right, for G9 you're talking about blowing out the nipples and simply forming them in a new spot (only possible for Daz PAs and involves editing the textures).
4 nipples? That falls under the "who cares" category for me.
There's a much more succinct way to say it, "Jack of all trades, master of none."
I don't disagree Genesis 9 is better as a universal mesh for all sorts of shapes, male, female, humaniod things, monsters, whatever.
The mesh is not as good as a dedicated mesh for humans of each respective gender. Which is as pointed out also less optimal for non-human things.
The disagreement IMO is really dependant upon what you want... you want a more universal G9 mesh to use it for other things, I don't care about other things I would rather have a better separate male & female mesh for G9.