Help with PC build semi-emergency
Phatmartino
Posts: 287
Hey guys, I'm hoping to get far more informed eyes from the community that shares my interest and use, on my plan to buy the main components for a new PC to replace my old one that just died. I need to get it together as soon as I can and want to get as good of a mid-range setup figured out as I can on a seriously limiting budget...
I have a 1000w Power Supply and a mediocre 2060s GPU that I can salvage from my old PC for now (I'll upgrade the GPU for DS when I'm able), so I'm concentrating mostly on the CPU, Motherboard, RAM and M.2 for my C: Drive to get up and running. Here's what I've come up with for those parts and this is already pushing my budget about as far as I can handle:
CPU
Ryzen 9 7900 Non-X $419 USD
I'm liking the look of the 65W TDP for now to get efficient low temp power at the price level I'm looking at...
Dual Memory Channels, 128GB Max Memory, 2x2R DDR5-5200, 4x2R DDR5-3600.
I mention these details because it clumsily informs the next choice which I have a couple questions about...
MEMORY
G.SKILL Flare X5 Series (AMD EXPO) 96GB (2x48GB) $259 USD
I found just enough info in my research to mildly understand Channels, Ranking, etc... So I want to get as much Ram as possible, staying in my budget, and maybe utilizing only 2 Kits, 1 per Channel, so that I'm not cutting the RAM Speed by 1/3, hence the 96GB (2x48) choice... A couple questions:
1. Is the loss of Ram Speed worth worrying about when it limits me to 96GB, rather than taking advantage of the 128GB max of the CPU and using (4x32)? I've also seen lots of (customer) reviews of motherboards saying "don't try to use all 4 Ram slots on this motherboard", etc. maybe they don't know what they're doing and used incompatible kits, who knows...
2. Is there anything I'm not aware of about using 48GB Kits that will cause any problems I can't foresee with my limited knowledge?
I assume the 128GB Max Memory of the CPU won't care how big the individual Kits are as long as the total doesn't exceed the Max... Just not sure if there's anything about 48GB Kits' Memory Chip Ranking, etc. that'll make something not work or be compatible.
MOTHERBOARD
ASUS ProArt X670E-Creator WiFi $405 USD
I want to go with an X670E, and Asus mainly for the ease of use features like GPU quick release and M.2 screwless seating, BIOS that I've seen a lot of people talk about in reviews of other mfg's MBs, comparing them poorly to Asus' that they had previously, etc.
This particular model is meant for Creators, I use Ps and After Effects, Pro Tools and Superior Drummer, as well as DS, MD, Blender... and it has some I/O stuff I didn't see on any others like 10Gb LAN, pretty crazy USB (especially Type C, two of which appear to be 40Gb/s??) and usual stuff like PCIe 5.0 M.2 Slot for my C: Drive...
HARD DRIVE
Crucial T700 1TB Gen5 NVMe M.2 with Heatsink $199 USD
Basically I want a Gen5 to take advantage of the PCIe 5.0 slot on the Motherboard, and this one barely fits in the budget with the Heatsink included that's made for it.
It looks like most MBs come with Heat Shields for M.2 Slots among other things... Should I be able to use that with something like the SSD I'm planning on without needing to buy the version that comes with it's own heatsink?
These 4 parts come to a total price of $1,283 USD
I have plans for the Case and Cooling that I don't need to bother anyone else with, just mainly wanted advice about the above parts and their viability/compatibility.
If anyone far wiser than I can look at this stuff and give any advice because they're familiar with any of these parts and just know some stuff (I'd never expect anyone to go and do research for me beyond what I've already done), it would be massively appreciated before I pull the trigger!! :D
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Comments
I use all four memory slots with 128Gbs; on my first system, in my signature below. Run great. I have heard of people having; problems using all four slots.
I just did this upgrade myself last week.
I got an asus mobo too. i7 13th gen
new memory and ssd
only difference is that I had to upgrade my liquid cooling system too. something to think about.
Intel Core i9 10850K @ 4800 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR (x86.fr)
...looks good.
ALso in needof an upgrade but in the "cheap seats" here. Still looking at moving to DDR4 (64 GB) an AM4 Ryzen 5700X, and an Asus B550 Creator MB.. 738$ total (including new CPU cooler and W11 Pro). Then again, I'll not be running anything like a 3090 or 4090, just a modest little 12 GB 3060. (which I already have).
My current system (12 years old) and has been chugging along like a champ, but with heavier demands being made by software (including Daz and Iray) it's beginning to feel its old "creaky joints" more and more so to say.(24 GB DDR3, X58 Motherboard ,Xeon 5660 6 core CPU, Titan-X GPU on a PCIe 2.0 slot on WIn7-Pro SP1).
You don't need to worry about the RAM slots being populated or not, just that you have enough. Even the speed is not all that important unless you plan on like CPU rendering for some crazy reason. (Don't, seriously, just don't.) However you will see me say this a lot, it depends on if you use other software besides Daz Studio that can take advantage of higher specs. I don't know how much the software you use will do that.
The positive to open RAM slots is future expansion. So you are building quickly to get back up and running, this makes perfect sense. You can leave two empty slots open now, and if by chance you think you need more RAM later, well, you can buy it and drop it right in no problem. If you bought 4 RAM sticks and then found you needed more...oh crap you need to ditch that RAM completely for a whole different kit. By leaving 2 slots open, you can save money for now.
A lot of this stuff is kind of arbitrary for Daz Studio. You don't really need a Ryzen 7900 for DS. I would only get this if you plan on using other software that can make use of its extra cores. That is because DS4 is still largely single threaded. Those 12 cores are not helping you one bit with Daz Studio! You could try rendering with 12 cores, but again...don't. You can save money here as well, and this is money you can put towards a sweet Nvidia GPU in the future. A great Nvidia GPU will make a MUCH bigger impact than a 7900 will. Maybe DS5 will be able to use more cores, but even then I doubt it will use all 12.
That is kind of the rule with Daz Studio and Iray. The GPU is what matters. It the 1st thing to be concerned about, and the 2nd and the 3rd. You only need to worry about other stuff if you use other software that can really use it.
Gen5 SSDs can get kind of warm. But keep this in mind, they only get warm in short bursts when you are actually moving a large data file. So you need to be moving lots and lots of data around to push the temps up. In "normal" use the temps are not going to be an issue at all. I don't know if it really matters as to which heatsink you use. It might also depend on where the M.2 ports are. Some might be located right under a GPU and the heatsink that comes with the M.2 could get in the way.
But the bigger thing to me is capacity. My asset library is bigger than 1TB. I have a 4TB SSD as my asset drive, though it is SATA. It is still much faster than any HDD, and I am not really sure if Daz Studio can really make use SSD speeds. At some point I may try testing something. But the larger you morph library is for a particular Genesis, the longer it takes that Genesis to load. This points to software rather than hardware being the primary bottleneck.
Of course, using the fast SSD will help your PC overall outside of DS, so having a nice one for the OS drive is logical. But I very much prefer using a separate dedicated drive for my 3D content. The next time your PC dies or you rebuild, you just take that drive and plug it in the new PC and go. All you have to do is show Daz Studio where the content library is and it will all be there. Boom. For me, buying a bigger drive with bang for the buck is what I like. You can get some really sweet deals on SSDs for a secondary drive now if you step back a gen. It is easy to find a 4TB gen 4 M.2 for under the $200 price of the gen 5 you listed. These are 5000MBs, though some 7300MBs models are just a bit above $200. So a small step down in speed, but we are talking quadruple the capacity here.
One other thing to point out is that historically, Intel performs better with Adobe software. It will depend on what you use. But some Adobe software can take advantage of the Intel built in iGPU to accelerate the task more. Which on that note, you'd want to avoid any F model that removes the iGPU. According to Puget, their benchmarks put the 13700k above the 7900x.
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/adobe-after-effects-13th-gen-intel-core-vs-amd-ryzen-7000-2372/
On the flip side, we can expect longer support for the AM5 socket from AMD than Intel will offer. In a couple years you will be able to upgrade the Ryzen a couple generations newer without needing a new motherboard. So that could be a big factor, too.
Here is a creator focused video that compares the 7900x, 12700k, 13700k, and 5900x. I couldn't find a 7900 non x review, but really, the non x is simply clocked lower than the x model. That's all. So you can expect some slightly lower scores and slightly lower power draw. At any rate, this video may surprise you, because there are some quirks to Ryzen chiplets that some reviews do not get into. That being the idle power draw. That might sound like an odd thing to point out, but think about it, your PC is idle more often than not, even when you are working on it. And it turns out the new Intel CPUs idle at exceptionally low numbers.
This video does touch on the memory controllers a bit. Though it doesn't say how much that actually impacts the content software performance.
...where an SSD really makes a difference is as the boot drive when it comes to system startup and launching software
Asus ProArt stuff is even more overpriced than their normal stuff. If you need the connectivity fine, otherwise I'd look further down the stack. The pro boards form different vendors sometimes only have basic audio support, check if this is important to you. Overpriced or not I generally like ASUS boards and GPUS, I've got a couple of each here along with other brands. They tend to work and the bios is easy to navigate. I quite like the software but not everyone does.
Remote PCIe release and NVME latches are great, I'd happily pay extra for these. Also bios flashback, integrated IO shields and reinforced PCIe slots.
Gen 5 SSDs are expensive, hot and unless you have a very specific need not much faster than good gen 4 in real world use. Last boot drive I bought was a 2TB SN850X. Temps with gen 4 drives are fine using the motherboard heat sinks.
Ram can be tricky to the point that board manufacturers are now issuing bios updates to support specific ram kits. On the support page for your chosen board is a list of tested board / cpu / ram kit combos. If you want an easier life start there.
Sounds pretty good, your specs, to me.
MUST RESIST: I am wanting to build a new desktop PC, but I know it doesn't make sense until PCIe5 is common (as in less expensive - it & required upgraded parts), AMD GPUs are integrated with RDNA3 graphics arch, and nVidia RTX 5000 series is out, as I have already have PCIe3, an AMD Zen 3 with pre RDNA arch graphics and an nVidia RTX 3060. I guess I will upgrade to a nVidia RTX 4070 TI and my MB to a model that has dual nVME M.2 slots in the meantime.
Wow. Thank you so much for the feedback, everyone!!
There's so much good info here that also led me to even more good info, I can't thank you enough.
@outrider42 Your insights and the links you provided pretty much changed my mind about Intel vs. AMD, at least as far as my own needs.
The info in just the video you linked (and a few more of his vids) opened my eyes to a few things I would have had no other way of knowing.
1. The idle Watt use thing is pretty crazy!
2. It sounds like the 13th gen Memory Controller is way better. Higher max speeds, less Speed loss and more stable when using all 4 slots...
3. The iGPU's Intel Quick Sync and CPU's Hybrid Cores sound like they'll be massively better in video editing and rendering...
I should have mentioned in my original post that I have a handful of SATA SSDs and a Type-C SSD for storage that'll hold me over for now. Thankfully all my content was on those. So I'm really just looking for a boot drive, like you and Kyoto mentioned.
@oddbob Your tip about using the MB mfg's compatibility tool was a game changer! I had one open for several different MBs paired with different GPU's to check for RAM compatibility throughout my recent research. So nice to have that added confidence that what I buy is going to work.
I did some builds moving everything back a gen, DDR4, PCIe 4, 12th gen CPU/MB and could save a lot of money... but then I tried pairing up some current gen stuff on the Intel side and came up with this (in comparison to my original plan with the Ryzen 9 7900):
CPU
Intel Core i9-13900K $568 USD
MOTHERBOARD
ASUS Prime Z790-A WiFi $280 USD
(DDR5, PCIe 5.0)
MEMORY
Kingston Fury Beast 64GB 5600 DDR5 (2x32) $218 USD
(I think I can deal with 64GB for now, and I can buy the same kit again at some point...)
HARD DRIVE
Crucial T700 1TB Gen5 NVMe M.2 SSD with Heatsink $199 USD
TOTAL PRICE: $1,265 USD
Compared to $1283 in my original build, with 32GB less RAM initially, but more leg room in a few ways. Also, looking at the MB Mfg's compatibility tools, I found very little compatibility with (2x48). Barely anything supports 192GB Max Memory anyway, whether CPU or MB it seems, as far as I could see (maybe I just wasn't seeing the most high-end stuff).
When it comes to future-proofing, I'm mainly looking at the capacity to upgrade periferals at this point more than the CPU without needing a new MB, so I want to go with Gen5 stuff but with the limit of 128GB Max Mem which will be way more than I'll need for a while, I'm sure.
A couple more questions...
1. If I go this route, I'll definitely be using my RTX 2060s 8GB GPU for now, which wasn't causing major problems for me is DS, as I'm not doing anything with more than a few Figures or terribly crazy environments, though I definitely hit the limit and have to optimize things every once in a while. So, looking forward toward helping that in the future, I know there's a thread about the 4060 TI 16GB, but if anyone's up on that info and could give an opinion about whether it's even remotely worth it, that's the last consideration that could possibly sway whether I try to dial back the rest of the system to be able to afford a beefier GPU sometime sooner-ish than later. I could swing a 4060 TI 16GB before too long... I haven't paid a ton of attention to the GPU market for a while, but it seems from some browsing like anything else with 16GB is way out of my price range. Am I missing something?
2. Because I'm now looking at a more normal level of CPU Max Wattage, I need to be a little more sure about the Cooling than with the Ryzen 9 7900 65W TDP... If I look at Air Cooling and a product has a Max Wattage number, say 250W... Should it be more than enough if I'm well under that? Or is there more to know that's important, like other specifics that might vary between Mfg's and Models to the point that I really need to research it and not just look at Price/Max Watts?
Again, thanks for all the help and any future expertise. It is so appreciated because this is way more complex than I thought it would be to try and come up a handful of parts that tick all the right boxes...
The 4060ti would be faster than what you have now for sure. I am not exactly sure how fast. You can look up the benchmark thread and grab the scene. With that you can get a baseline. We have some 2060 Super tests but they are on older versions of Daz Studio, and those are outdated. Also, just know the benchmark scene is just one scene and intended to be a general guide. Actual performance can vary in any scene.
The 4060ti is quite an oddball. It offers 16gb of VRAM which is otherwise only available with a 4080 or jumping up to some very expensive Quadro or A Series. That really limits your choices. The 4060ti is only about half as fast as the 4070ti. The 4080 is more than 2 times faster than the 4060ti. However, the 4080 is also more than 2 times the price of the 16gb 4060ti, though that might depend on your location.
The 4090 is off the chart. I looked up some numbers recently, and it goes like this. The 4060ti is half the 4070ti as I said. The 4070ti is in turn half the 4090. Thus the 4090 is 4 times faster than the 4060ti. It is crazy. But a bad kind of crazy...they cut down these lower end cards too much. That's the problem most people have, there are a lot of people who will say the 4060ti is really a "4060" or even "4050". They are not really wrong, the physical size of the chip in the 4060ti is very tiny, and smaller than a 3050. But it is what it is.
The 4060ti is still nearly as fast as the 2080ti, the top card from your Turing generation. It might even push past the 2080ti in some scenes. It is probably around 3070 level. So compared to what you have, you should still get a strong boost in speed, and of course the extra VRAM.
Again these are all Iray figures, and don't quite line up with how gaming performance is.
When it comes to other software, the 4000 series does fine. They support more video codecs than Turing or Ampere. Though the video I showed gives Intel an edge in a number as well. So that is moving in the right direction.
Plus since you are concerned about power, the 4060ti is extremely effecient. It uses a little less power than your 2060 Super. Almost anything above it will use more power than your 2060 Super.
But at the same time, the primary reason for the 4060ti is the VRAM. Like I said, the 4070ti is basically twice as fast. It is pretty silly to think it is only 2 tiers above the 4060ti, and crazy that 4070 and 4070ti only have 12gb. There are also several Ampere cards that are faster, though these do use more power. A 3090 on sale would be pretty rad. Some could be found for as low as $600 in places. Even though it uses a lot more power and is a giant card, I would still figure out a way to make it work for that price, lol.
I don't know what time frame you are on, but the GPU market is in a lull. If your 2060S is holding up, just stay with it. Prices could drop in the future, though I cannot guarantee it. Nvidia is doing everything they can to keep prices high even though cards are not selling. So I don't know what to say other than to hope for some deals to hit. AMD might finally be releasing some new cards soon which could make a mockery of the 4060ti. If that happens, it might push prices down a bit. It is too bad we cannot use AMD for Iray, because there would be a lot more options. But AMD is also pretty bad in some editing software, too, so AMD is not the best choice for content creation in general. It is basically a gaming product.
...yeah I always consider VRAM to be a "speed factor" as if your scene drops to the CPU, you are stuck in the slow lane.
True, but it does depend on whether they truly use that VRAM. It is a tough thing to gauge. If they never use more than 12gb, then a 4070 is a logical choice given just how much faster it is while only costing $100 more. And that is just MSRP. Various things can push the prices closer, and some 4060tis even have a price above the cheaper versions of 4070s. That's bonkers no matter how much they try to justify the cost of a fancy cooler.
VRAM is only valuable if that VRAM is needed. For some people, it absolutely is vital. But for some it really isn't a big deal.
The 4060ti 16gb is in a tight sandwich. The 3060 sits under it with 12gb and isn't that much slower while costing a lot less right now. The 4070 does cost more, but not a lot more, yet is way faster. Faster than the price gap is. So the 4060ti sits in awkward spot between them. You have to really need all 16gb to justify buying it right now.
Of course if prices change then everything changes. I can imagine a point in the future, maybe a year or two out, when the 4060ti 16gb gets much cheaper. I could be very wrong, but if that day comes then it will be a much better deal.
...for my scenes it is. I've hit close tothe edge on my Titan X several times and hat wasn't anuywhere as heavy as some of my 3DL scenes were.
Again, thanks so much for all the helpful and crazy in-depth advice, @outrider42. I'm even more sure about my planned rig now, knowing if I really feel the need I could get a 4060 Ti at some point, especially if I see the price change at all... but I also started to see what you mean as far as noticing used 3090's and if I saw one on sale for even more than $600, I'd bite if I could manage it. Really would be nice to find a way to have even more RAM as well as tons more speed!
I'm planning on pulling the trigger on Friday when I get paid. I've been out of town Mon-Fri the last 3 weeks working really long days and doing almost nothing but sleeping otherwise, that's why my responses have been delayed and it's been a bit harder than it might have been otherwise to do all this research as fast as I could. All the help is massively appreciated. Can't wait to get back into my usual routine with a vastly better rig!! :D