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My bad,. it was a quickly thrown together scene,. constructed with no real reasoning other than an example of the hierarchic structure, and use of modifiers.to animate several things together simply.
I'm glad you're getting somewhere despite it :)
Using constraints on child objects can be a useful way to lock the position of that object to the parent,. to avoid accidentally moving those while you're working, and to set limits for their motion relative to the parent.
Polymers in a microwave sounds tasty. :)
Of course I spoke too soon. I have motion across the whole polymer from left to right but the motion increases along the chain (from parent to child) rather than being independently controllable.
I think the heirarchies of hierarchies is out of control. If I remove one of the target helpers on the right and it's spin, that object continues to spin, I think from the motion of the parents. I keep thinking this must be simple but it isn't. As you can see there are two grey objects connected by a joint. I want to keep adding joints and more objects but they either don't stay connected or they propagate spinning.
Any ideas?
I tried tracking the hot spot on the left side of the joint to the second blue ball from the left. Good. Then I tried tracking the grey ball that I want to attach to the right side of the joint to an invisible ball on the right end of the joint. (got that from your example). Didn't track. Don't know why.
You could try creating a continuous bond chain (like a string), then create some bones to animate that,. then use Tracking, Parenting, or Target helpers to connect the molecules at points along the string
I'm not entirely sure of the motion of the compete chain,. I'm thinking an occilating string with rotating moleules at 90degree angles
If it's 'invisible' by deselecting the 'Visible' box, that's the reason. That makes it completely invisible, not just invisible in the render. To fix that part, just apply a shader with all channels set to "None" except alpha, which has Value 1-100 set to 0%
Ok, this is driving me nuts. What I want is to assemble the left and right pieces joined by the green joint in this image. I can't seem to make the joint attach at both ends with any combination of objects, target helpers, pointing, tracking, or heirarchies.
As a backup, I will do the string of rods thing and then add some motion of some of the pieces. Not much better than PowerPoint. Perhaps I was expecting too much of Cararra. I wanted to show how the motions affected each other in a realistic way.
Nah... you can do this. I've been kind of following this as it went, but didn't step in since I must admit that I've been fairly lost as to what you really wanted to accomplish. That last image and note makes a light bulb glow, though... so let's try something else here.
First of all, when I came into this thread just now (because I was thinking about this during a meeting this afternoon! LOL) I was going to suggest having a look at this tutorial by Eric at DCG regarding using his Cognito plugin. Even if you don't have the plugin or intend on getting it, just his use of many multiple groups over one another might just spark a method that might help you get what you want, as far as having this thing move, that thing following but also moving in another way at the same time... etc.,
After reading your above post, however, I think that we need to add some rigging to that grey zig zag thingy. Don't sneer just yet... here me out for a second:
Rigged figures are loaded up with constraints that disable all manner of behaviors that 3d software is capable of doing. But when we use Carrara to create a skeleton, without adding constraints we can do pretty much anything with the individual portions of the rig's mesh - really!
For this thing, I would plunk the first bone right in the center of that green highlight in your last image. Before branching off from that bone, ask yourself: where does this think need to change in some way, bend, rotate, whatever. Add the next bone at that spot. Since we're going from the center outwards, I'll just say that we're going to the right, and that we've placed the next one just over in the center of that gray ball which leads to a branch which leads to the red strand. So that second bone is in the center of the gray ball, really close to the first bone, which is in the center of the green highlight. We want to completely ignore the red and blue strands in this rig right now - possibly entirely. So the next bone will go in that angle at the base of where that red strand is. The next and the next angle, and so on.
Now, before we go any further, we might not even need nearly this may bones if that gray zig zag thingy doesn't need to change angles at those angles. If that's the case, just add bones where you need something to rotate independently of the rest.
To branch bones off from the center, select the center bone before placing the next bone.
Experiment with more than one rig, since it's so easy to do anyways.
Once you have placed what you think will be a decent skeleton for this thing to work, select the main bone (center) and the model (or group) that you want attached to it and go: Animate > Attach Skeleton
At this point you'll be able to see that, when you select one of the child bones, you'll be able to spin it in any direction, scale it, distort it... anything you want.
Once you do this first experimental rig attached to your group, the gears will begin spinning in your mind as to how you'll be able to set this thing up.
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Who knows, though... I might still be way off base! LOL
Maybe that Cognito plugin is all you need? Let me know how this thought process works for you. It's hard for me to help since I have no idea how this stuff you're making is supposed to behave. It's really hard to decipher what you truly need to do - but I know that it can be done in Carrara. Carrara is magic about this kind of thing! :)
Addendum: I was also thinking that Fenric's ERC for Carrara plugin might be the right tool, but that's another complex setup that takes a bit of study to get the results you need. But basically it can make one thing's action(s) control another thing or things.
I had the thought a while back that a skeleton is just what I want but I was intimidated by them and kept trying to do it manually. I will try this tomorrow.
Yes the green bond and the grey atom must be attached. After going right, do I go left and put a bone in the blue atom before attach->skeleton? All bones are connected? Sounds like the heirarchies are not as important as the bone connections?
I think the biggest issue for us (trying to help),. is the fact that we've almost no idea what the motion should be for any of the elements,.
we can suggest all the diffrent options for connecting things together, and relistically it has to be possible, whether it's a combination of several rigged objects animated to "fake an attraction between the parts,. or linked using targets or parenting,
When you create a bone,. (that first bone normally becomes the "Root" bone,. the next time you click, another bone (connected to the first bone) is created,
For a human or animals,. the Root bone is usually the hip, Both Legs, are created by re-selecting the Root bone,. then clicking to create the thigh bones you'd normally continue that creation process to the foot, then start the opposite leg from the Root bone.
The same process is used to create the Arms or front legs,. you'd select the Chest bone and clcik where you wanted to create the Shoulders.
As Dart mentioned, without constraints,. bones will deform the mesh in any way you want, which may or may not look right,. that's where understanding the actual motion that you expect to see is needed, so that you can limit or control the motion of those bones by using some constraints,.
Also,. I'm looking at your screen cap,. and it seems like all of those parts are connected in a single Heirarchy,. but if you seperated the Red, and Blue elements with thier bonds,. You could then attach or track each of those elements to the green connector.
another suggestion would be to simplify the models,. for example, combine the red cylinder and it's red sphere into a single model which can be duplicated, shaded, and placed wherever it's needed,.
If you could create a diagram of the motion of those parts, It may help us to visualise a way to make that happen
I have made a skeleton with two limbs and attached it to the Polymer group (which is greatly simplified) and attached a skeleton just fine. Then I wanted to Animation->Detach Skeleton but it is greyed out. I did click select on the polymer, nope. c-s the bone, nope, c-s both, nope. The manual is very simple but it doesn't work. I on;y have four children on each side.I have to have a detached skeleton befrore putting in object modifiers, right?
Image below
You need to select the mesh object, then detach skeleton.
When you're drawing in the Bones,. Use an isometric view,. EG: Front, rather than a perspective view, such as Camera1, or Directors camera.
Bones are drawn in the centre of your scene, rather than against the grid wall,. so it helps to have your model set up in the middle of the grid, You can always reposition bones after you've created them, to line up with your mesh, before attaching the skeleton.
Why?
Yes. Hierarchy is EVERYTHING! You must place your initial bone at a good base point. Think of it like the Hip of a human figure, which is its base bone. Grab that base bone and don something to it and that happens to everything in the whole figure. So if I'm reading what you're doing correctly, you'll need that base to be in the center, so that each side of that may rotate independently. If those bends in the main gray strand don't ever need to change, go ahead and ignore them. However, if it was me, I would trash that scene and start again with a single, straight strand with no bends in it at all. I'd make sure that there was geometry where the bends need to occur. Then I'd add a skeleton with a main one in the center of the strand, then branch out from that in both directions, adding a new bone everywhere a bend needs to be. Then Attach the skeleton. Then apply my bends.
The separate red and blue things - I would keep these separate from the main - so they don't get added to the skeleton. Now I'd parent them each to the bone in which they need to follow. At this point they would follow in a literal sense. So if they need to always point in a certain direction, give them a "Point At" modifier with something off in the proper direct for then to point at. Each one could point at their own target if they need to point in different direction. If that direction needs to change as the main unit (gray strand) turns, then simply animate the thing that they point at. If those targets are off in the distance, like I was saying, then insert a target helper and parent that to the new target helper that is still in the center of the scene, so that the pointed at target moves at a large arc around the center of the whole scene.
What is the mesh object? You can see the green bond in the middle which is the first bone. The other bonds towards the left and right are the heirarchy of the bones.
I have just the simplest structure here with connected bones, right?
The mesh object is your model,. it's a mesh,. the other stuff, like bones, are actually helpers to animate the mesh
have a look at this file,. just messing around with a single model for all the bonds,. and a simple model for the molecules which as Dart mentions should be parented to the mesh after you've attached the skeleton.
I've also set up some IK on the joints but no constraints, so it can be moved freely.
The Molecules are set to spin.
On your setup,. you have a "joint" entry between the diamine and the epoxy,. I'm thinking that the diamine should be a separate element from the Epoxy, and they should both be connecting to a "Joint" object, but i'm guessing, as i dont know how it should be structured or how it should move.
In simple terms, you'd have two elements ..sphere's (polymer and epoxy) both connected to a the ends of a ..Cylinder (joint),
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/IK_Chainbonds_.car
That's an interesting model not because it is like what I want but because I can learn from it. Do you need IK if you have a skeleton attached? Why do you have an Animation Group in the hierarchy? Isn't the bond hierarchy enough? Don't I have Epoxy and Amine separate?
Your model has a chain of bones in one direction. Mine starts with the "hip" joint and has two "legs" with children bones. I want to eventually add more joints and more copies of alternating epoxy and amine. I was hoping to get the basic units working and then copy many of them.
What is important in my model is that the blue bond on the left of the green joint needs to rotate around the x-axis. You can imagine that when that happens, it causes the bonds to the right to be rotated as well but in a complicated way. This requires the bonds on each side of the joint to stay attached. This seems to me just like skeletons in animals. You move a thigh and the knee, calf, foot, and toes all move but stay attached. Is it not that simple?
The problem with the detach skeleton command may resolved by just starting fresh rather than re-working an older model.
I also am assuming that one needs to build the skeleton first and then put in spin modifiers second. Corect?
Correct regarding the spin.
I wish there was some way to show or explain what you need to happen. Another idea about using bones, is that you could make just one of those gray things and give it only the bones that you need for that one branch. Now drag that into your browser to save it, then bring in another copy of it (Duplicate doesn't work on rigged items) and just treat the two separately - group them for when you want to control both of them as a single item. Group that yet again if you want to control them together from yet another hotpoint, and so on. Between rigging, parenting, grouping, and the ability to add modifiers to any and all of those things makes it pretty possible to perform nearly any kind of animation.
Sparrowhawke has some free plugins that further enhance the ability to move something by moving another thing
No, ...but it's more helpful to have it in some situations especally where the model has to appear jointed, like a leg or arm.
The advantage of an animated group is that it creates an additional track (NLA track) for that group of objects which meand that once you've animated the keyframes you need for your motion, that can be saved as an NLA clip and repeated in the NLA track.
It also becomes the "container" for the Mesh model and it's bones,. which mean that it's easier to save that to the browser as a single animated thing.
Rather than just a Group which holds things together.
In that situation,. were the Blue Bond is parented to the bond and is causing that to spin,. you could try replacing that Blue Bond with a target
or Hide the blue bond, then use Track or Point at,. to place another Blue Bond at the target, since you're no longer directly connected to the other parts, it should be able to spin freely
Nothing in 3D is ever that simple :) Constraints in bone joints, limit the amount of movement of each bone, and IK is like your muscles connecting the thigh shin foot bones together in a way that keeps them attached
If you created a simple leg model. and added some bones for the thigh shin foot,. then move any of those bones,. they'll be able to move in any direction (stretching or shrinking) or at unnatural angles for a leg.
you need to limit the rotation of the Thigh, shin, and foot bones,. by adding constraints to each bone to limit the ability to move the bones outwith the expected range of motion.
Ditto on the Sparrowhawke plugins option,
As has been mentioned, the first bone you create is the root bone and all other bones branch from that. Keeping that in mind, if you were to rig a garden hose, and you wanted one end to stay connected to the faucet, then that is where you would place the first bone and then create the other bones connected to it. When IK and constraints are applied, you would grab the last bone in the chain, and drag it around. All the other bones should move within the limits of their constraints, except the first bone (or root bone). That bone should stay in place. If you were to move the root bone, the entire chain would be moved, but the chain wouldn't flex or anything, it would look as if you were just moving the un-rigged model around scene, meaning it would be rigid.
Now, if you were to take this same model and have the bone at the end of the chain track a target helper, you could move the target and the end bone would follow it around within the bounds of its constraints. Conversely, if you were to grab the root bone and move it, the last bone would remain tracking the target and so when the root is moved, the hose would then flex.
If you were to start rigging the hose in the middle, instead of a linear chain, you would have two branches, one to the left of the hose and one to the right of the hose. When IK and constraints are applied, you could grab either end of the hose and move them around, but the root bone in the middle of the hose would not move. If you were to have each end track a target, you could then grab the root bone in the middle and lift it, and the two ends of the hose would remain in place.
A DAZ figure is rigged with the hip as the root bone and IK and constraints are already applied. What this means, is that if I load a V4 into my scene, she will load in the standard T-Pose. If I select the hip bone and move it, V4 will be moved in the scene and still be in the T-Pose. If I were to select the right hand and move it, the IK will move the bones in the right arm and the torso because the torso bones branch from the hip, and the right arm branches from the chest. The hip will retain its position and won't move.
If I were to have the feet and hands track targets, and then move the hip, then all the limbs would move as the hands and feet try and track the targets. Using this method correctly is a great way to get a more fluid and realistic animation.
Animation groups allow you to use NLA clips. Carrara brings in a DAZ figure as an NLA Group. You have the top level of the group which is the figure name, such as V4. This is where the NLA track is located. The next level in the group's hierarchy is the Model (Genesis and later it is called Actor), followed by the bones, with the hip being the top level and everything branching from there. When I create an Animation group I try and follow the same structure.
Animating an Animation Group and then converting that animation to an NLA clip can really be a time saver, as the clip can be used again and again, and even looped for repetitive animations.
This clip uses target helpers to keep the feet of the dinosaur locked in place so that I can move the hip forward, backward, up and down to make the movements in the legs and torso to give the appearance of grazing. I also keyframed the head animations and used a target and IK to animate the tail. I then converted the animation to an NLA clip and applied it to another dinosaur. The beauty of the NLA clip is that you can slow it down or speed it up by simply dragging the end of the clip along the timeline. That is why the dinosaurs' movements aren't in perfect sync.
IK, targets, and modifiers, such as spin can also be used to create complex animations such as V4 riding a bike. The V4 is posed on the bike, then targets are placed in the scene for each foot and hand to track. The targets for the feet are parented to the pedals on the bike and the targets on the hands are parented to the handle bars. Before I enabled tracking for the feet, I applied a spin modifier to the sprocket and a spin modifier to the pedals and adjusted the spin on the sprocket to a speed I liked, and then adjusted the counter spin on the pedals. After that was set up, I enabled the tracking for the feet. The torso animation was keyframed.
Wow, I am overwhelmed by all your comments.
May I ask a basic question? If I:
- create multiple un-grouped parts;
- create a skeleton hierarchy in the parts;
- orient joints automatically;
- attach skeleton;
- create spin on the root bone;
find that if I add spin to any other bone or object, it is ignored and the whole skeleton/mesh rotates as the root bone. Do I now put IK on each child that I want to move?
I don't know why the image didn't download. GIF file.
Each bone can have "constrains"applied to it (Motion panel) ..these limit the range or type of motion for that bone
For example,. a Shoulder would be a Ball joint, while the elbow would be an axis...
All of the constraints have options to limit the range of motion,
As I mentioned in my overly long winded post (sorry about the length BTW), the movement of the root bone moves all the other bones in the hierarchy as it is essentially the master, or parent bone. The reason the others don't move could be a constraint issue.
In your screen cap, are the cylinders making the object supposed to be rigid or flexible/bendable?
I am still unsuccessful. I have been using the hip to foot analogy here (and from the help file).
The steps are: create root bone (hip) and additional bones (to foot). Orient joint. Select one (any?) bone, shift+click on all objects from hip to foot. Animate/Attach Skeleton. For inverse kinetics, select root bone (hip), click chain icon, click on foot bone. (I notice after attaching skeleton, the menu item detach skeleton is greyed out.)
Now when I add modifiers to all of the bones for spinning, it all does appear to spin with attachments. But look at the second image (after some rotation time): several of the cylinders not even part of this skeleton have gone spinning out of control. This makes no sense.
There are no constraints and the cylinders are rigid. The red parts are groups of four objects and the blue are groups of six objects. They are not hierarchical within the groups.
I started over and using the same set of commands got an even bigger mess. I am trying to be really careful to follow the instructions!
Joint orientation I assume means the direction from hip to foot for example?
sometimes, when youre creating, or moving the bones, this can cause some twisting, or rotation of the bones,. "Orient joints" will fix that
it's probably more important on a figure where a wrongly orientated leg bone would be quite noticable.
Once you've attached the skeleton "Bones" to the selected mesh (3D model),. then the bones are connected to the model,
so you need to select the Model,. then detach the skeleton from that
Normally, when you attach a bone to an object, for example,.. a human or animal,. that 3D model is a single object,. and the skeleton is attached to that model, which alows you to bend the model at the joints,
I think if you created a single "Bond" model (Blue or Red sections),. then attach bones where that model needs to bend,. then parent your "Spinning molecue" (prop) to one of the joints in the bones for that bond,.
So the bonds, are rigged with bones to make them flex or move,. and the spinning molecule is a separate object, with no bones, which is Parented to one of the bones in the bond model.
Think of a Figure, holding a staff
The figure is a rigged mesh, and the Staff is a Prop,. the Staff is then Parented to the figures hand, so that it moves along with the figure,..but the staff can be freely moved or rotated, like twirling a batton.
probably not the best example
3DAGE, I may not understand your suggestion, but I don't think that is the animation that I want.
In real life, all these cylinders are connected to each other with ball joints. I am simplifying a lot by trying to rotate only the blue and red grouped objects. It seems like I can look at these structures as hip to foot bones that are connected with joints in a skeleton. If I rotate a bone, the other bones have to move in concert. Then I will have several pelvises (?) to connect to each other in the bigger picture (by hierarchies?). Kind of like creating an alien octopus arms thing (Men in Black II).
Since the hip/foot thing is common and I am getting it wrong, I must have holes in my understanding of how it all works and the help file is not dummy-proof.
Are these steps correct and complete?
I think the problem is that I don't understand the animation you want,. i've tried to ask if you can describe the motion of each part, or the whole thing, since that would help us to understand what you need to do to get that type of animation. ....but I think we'll get there, it's just a frustrating process at times.
The basic construction is correct,. but in the example of the tentacled beastie,. the model would be a simgle object,. rather than separate limbs unconnected to the body
it would have a central HIP, and all of the tentacles would come from that,.
that's what i meant by selecting the mesh and then you can detach the bones from it,
You mentiond that the Blue and Red sections were constructed with multiple cylinders,.
Try making these as single objects, rather than grouped structures.,.. Unless they are supposed to flex and move,... in which case each of thoise would require more bones.
bear in mind that the bones (once attached) have an influence over the vertices of the mesh object. and parts of your current mesh may be outside of that influence
this envelope of influence is normally adjusted in the vertex modeller,. using the Weight painting tools (another reason you should use a single object)
think of the bones as a magnet which influences the object
I think you're getting the Hip/foot thinnk just fine,. I think the construction of the object should be a single object
Have a look at this ,. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/Bones.car
now, i'm unsure whether you want the vertical stubs (Bone3 and Bone5) to be freely spinning around the main part,. If so,. then thse parts should be made as single objects without any bones, and simply parented in place on the main item.
If you want to connect Multiple versions of this object together,. then Bone2 and Bone6 can be either parented to, or use track, to follow the bones on another version of this.
Hope it helps
I have tried it with all the mesh objects ungrouped without luck.
I notice in your file that there is a vertex object and an animation group which is quite different from mine. I have been trying to follow the exact online help pages.
In the attached image you can see a red object at the left bottom, which includes the foot bone. When I spin that bone, the whole red object rotates just fine. Then I set the next bone in blue next to it to spin and they both spin just fine. EXCEPT that the blue cylinder at the far right of the gif file flips around in space for no reason.
Honestly, I am suspecting the software.
- I have made eight exact copies of the starting objects. Then used the exact written instructions to connect hip to toe (as above image) and gotten eight different results. How can I do this when it changes everytime?
I think I am wasting your time. I hate to give up though. I will look for a tutorial on just the building of a skeleton part and see if there are instructions that are consistent.
Thanks. You have been consistently helpful.and patient.