Make promo credit mandatory
geordiesharp
Posts: 159
Does anyone else feel the same as me, that sites that use promo pictures to sell items, or promote sales should list all assets used in pictures, as a mandatory thing, I have used lots of sites for years and I always end up going round in circles to find assets used, because no list is provided,
My latest circle search which I went on is in the picture below, from a sale promo image on Renderosity, I really want the outfit and possibly the character and hair , but all I can find is the top and jacket, which don't include the pants or jewelry, and no trace of the character :(
Sorry about the rant, but if anyone can help, I would be very happy
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
7533 S Center View Ct #4664
West Jordan, UT 84084
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
Moved to the Commons as it is not a Daz Studio application topic.
This has been discussed at length in many threads. It's not feasible for a variety of reasons, including that the Daz store doesn't link to non-Daz products used in promos (and presumably vice-versa), promos are not necessarily done by the creator of the product for sale, promos might include products custom-made or heavily edited for the promo, etc. Also, my canned response is that the one and only purpose of a promo image is to advertise the product for sale.
Not naming the content used in DAZ3D promo images has frustrated me more than anything else on the Internet. I've posted about this many times over 10 years.
When I email the artist whose product it is being promoted, and ask what the content is, 9 times out of 10 they say "I don't remember", or the best response is "it's THIS product" and it turns out NOT to be that product. That has happened countless times. Another common response is "I used a mix of characters" to create the one you want.
There are a few extremely GENEROUS artists who not only tell you exactly what the name of the items are, but where to buy it. And, miraculosly, there are a handful of artists who mix morphs to create the character you want, and they send you screen shots of the exact characters in the mix, AND THE PERCENT they were dialed in, AND the skin texture and how they achieved the effect.
If every fashion magazine in the world can list the credits (right down to the perfume the model is wearing) of ALL the content in EVERY editorial image they print, and EVERY movie and television show in the world can list, on screen, hundreds, or thousands of artists and technicians who contributed to the production, I hardly think it's that difficult to name ONE 3D character if someone asks.
I emailed Gretchen Rau, the art director who won the Academy Award for Memoirs of a Geisha in 2005, and asked here where she got the Japanese lanterns that decorated the movie's interiors. This SAINT of an artist sent me one of the actual antique lanterns used in the film. She told me she had been collecting them for 30 years, they were antiques, handpainted, one-of-a-kind, and the only thing she could tell me about where or who she bought them from was that she got them on trips on Japan. She'd see one in a restaurant, or hotel, or during a festival, or in a religious setting, and she'd offer to buy it from the owner.
I think the sales page could be improved a lot, with a note indicating that some of the items displayed are from other sites or are custom characters.
Some display pictures can cause misunderstandings, and the text must be read carefully to determine the content. The most common problem is the problem of textured products.
If there is a comment function, it will reduce many questions, instead of searching the forum to see if there is a discussion about the product.
By the way, the search function of the forum is not easy to use either.
I used to be the flag waving poster person for this very topic! Then I did a promo image once and I gotta tell you - some PAs have MULTIPLE artists creating promo images with ZERO oversight from the PA. The PA can then use, or not use the submitted image. But they have absolutely no way to control what people use in the promos aside from their own subject model. I, myself, sometimes use two copies of the same, or two different, hair(s) on a model and then apply different colors, sligthly different poses, etc. Should I have to document all of that, I simply wouldn't bother doing the work AT ALL. Or I create some element myself by modification, kitbash, use stuff from long dead stores, add some Photoshop touches in post, etc. At any given time if you asked me what I used to create what I just created I couldn't tell you for the life of me. I rove through my library and toss stuff in, take stuff out, and in short order, short of videotaping the entire session (no thank you), there is no way for me to know. Asking a PA to get this info from any, or all, of their promo artists would be a massive time-suck where they are NOT creating content. Asking promo artists to generate a list of stuff that will then be culled so as not to be advertising consumers AWAY from DAZ is a losing proposition all the way around.
I feel ya, friend, I feel ya.
Maybe they should invest a couple of dollars in one or both of these: https://www.daz3d.com/content-gatherer and/or https://www.daz3d.com/md-list-of-products-used
Then there are artist selling content that have characters that are spectacular and they don't want anybody to know the character or the texture beause they want an exclusive look to their promo images. Their own personal supermodel wearing something extraordinary - to capture attention and elevate the perceived desirability of the actual prodcut they're selling. I don't click on any of their products anymore to even look at them because I know it's the unavailable character drawing my attention, not the product they're selling. It's like walking into a bricks and mortar store and asking for something and being told "it's out of stock". You do that a couple of times and get told "it's out of stock", and you don't bother ever going back to the store. It's their marketing strategy and it's perfectly fine with me. It saves me a lot of time and money. But you know, they should be selling those characters. They'd make a fortune.
I think @Gogger answered the issue. Great if it could be done, and no practical way to do it.
When I first joined DAZ that or something similar, was one of my first posts. I was not as subtle as you, much more direct, and I probably inadvertantly insulted the artist by showing more interest in the products used and not the product being sold. Knowing me, I probably indicated I was far more interested in the promo item. Some called it a drop mike moment. I had no clue what that meant at the time. Now, fast forward eight years, and having rendered a ton for a picture book, I get why many PA's don't and typically can't list a catalogue of non-owned items. If they did, they would have to double their prices to accomodate the time they spent doing that instead of sculpting rigging texturing etc. Their time is very valuable and that is not a wise way to spend it. Also if the item is not available at DAZ, they can't and doing so won't pay their bills. That said I really do appreciate those that take the time to do that and try hard to support them as an artist by buying their products. Most folks here enjoy hunting down an asset and are oftentimes quite helpful when one asks nicely, what hair was this, what outfit was this etc. Try giving that a shot.
The model in the picture is most likely a kitbash using morphs and materials from different products. She's the artist's unique child. I think the hair she's wearing looks like OutOfTouch or Windfield's style, possibly FeSoul or Toyen. The pants resemble Aeon Soul's work. I don't know about the belt.
That image is for the November to Remember sales event at Rendo put together by the staff. I'd suggest going to their Marketplace Customers forum and asking there.
Thanks for mentioning this. I went ahead and picked it up.
How did I not know about the Rendo forum, must have missed that on the thousand plus visits there, I'll post up about it there. Thanks
For me, it points out that there are two kinds of artists: the first brings out a scratchpad and doodles (or in this case, goes into their library and picks assets while discarding false starts or images that don't appeal, while the second fire up their spreadsheet, and meticulously record each asset as they place them in a scene. I am pretty freestyle when I render and don't keep close track of the lineage of each asset that I use. Fauvist cites a movie art director who has a component of her job being asset management for accounting, film credit, and tax purposes. I would expect someone in her position to keep close tabs on what assets were used; especially if one might have reshoot a scene. For most artists here, a scene is a one off. One doesn't need such precise record keeping and can just peruse one's library to see what looks apt.
Pants/Belt: Timeless Outfit, Jacket/Shirt: dForce Mood II Outfit, Choker: Sveva, but I cannot find it in this store or Renderosity, though she uses it in several of her promos sans pendant
Character may be a variation based on P3D Saskia.
The character looks like Valerie for G9 by Deva3D on Rendo. She's even wearing those same clothes on the promo pics for that character.
Some of the above answers summarise this perfectly, just in my own words, I think it would be unwise to demand that Artist's compulsorily accomodate such a potentially time-eating addition to their workflow, particularly since it's no secret that content creation for this market is an extremely labour heavy job as it is. It is very helpful when the Artist does take the time to do this, perhaps they could be incentivised in some way due to the repeat demand from many customers and the fact that it is such a great help when it is included? I can't even field a guess at how many times I've seen a promo and thought along the lines of 'I hope that Sword is part of the product', only to find it's from another one, so ultimately I do believe this can be done more, just not as a compulsory measure...
Good save, @alken! And all the promo products are listed too.
Choker: Goth Outfit
While DAZ does encourage us to list items in the promos it isnt always possible to list every item used in the shots.
Alot of PA's will edit clothes and objects in their shots to better match the characters they are selling, as such looking for the product in the shop would be pointless and cause more questions than it would answer. I know alot of mine are heavily edited.
That is why most people are happy to answer what questions they can if they are asked nicely in the forums, like often is done.
And the product page at Rendo for that character lists the outfits. So @geordiesharp - to save you time searching, they include:
Timeless Outfit Genesis 8 and 8.1F
dForce Mood II Outfit for Genesis 8 Females
ETA: For some reason those haven't shown up looking like links in my post - but if you click on them they will take you to the right place.
Is nice to have the details. But i don't think it should be mandatory.
A big thank you to all of you for your comments and ideas, I am glad it is not just me who finds the task of looking for items from promo pictures very difficult. Thank you @alken and @xyer0 those are indeed the clothes and character used :) my search is over :)
As for my original post of making it mandatory to list all items, having given it some thought, I do realise it may be a big ask, as I know it is not really a big consideration when making a one off picture for sales promotions, and I do know DAZ for example are improoving thier assets listings, to include "ITEMS USED IN PROMOTIONS" at the bottom of the asset page, and that this information can be very hard to find even for professionals, and of course the listing of every item, on ever page would be impossible to police. all that said I find it infuriating when I see a promo picture for something, and think that item or charecter is great, but then find that the item I want is not included in whatever product it is, and was only there to help advertise the other product, which is perfectly understandable, all of us would use whatever extra assets to help promote or sell our products, but with no listing or any way to find what I originally wanted, I just go down the rabbit hole of endless searches.
And in my personal experience, whilst many artists/content creators, are very helpful and more than open to helping others, I have had a fair few bad experiences on other forums (thankfully not DAZ related forums), and so these experiences have made me very wary of posting or emailing a person directly.
There are several legitimate 3D content sites other than Rendo. And some great content creators sell exclusively from their own websites.
There's lots of reasons why content might not be listed, but to be honest - it all really comes down to this fact.
Listing other people's products nets the vendor absolutely nothing. One thing they don't need for what's not actually a very well paid job is extra work, and the thing they really don't need is extremely tedious extra work. I don't particularly want to pay more and I don't want to risk driving vendors away either, so I've reached an acceptance that if I see something I like in a promo render then my answer is to ask the community. (Who generally do have a fairly high success rate on identifying things).
Also, as a general thing, I don't see much point in worrying about not being able to get every possible thing I see in promo renders; there's the reality tthat the same "I see it, but I can't have it" logic frequently applies to other things like user renders (not everyone wants to answer, not everyone will see a question directed at them) or things I see in real life, and I already have more choice for characters, clothes and bus stops than I would ever be able to render.
Because this comes up a lot, I keep a handy list of various reasons I have encountered why a PA has not listed additional assets used in promo images for a product:
In other words, listing assets used is an extra service and should be treated as such.
I must admit that listing of assets used in the Freebie Forum render competitions can be very onerous, particularly if you got it years ago and can't remember exactly where you got it from. I've several times taken more time listing the assets used than it took to create the image in the first place. As a result I can strongly sympathise with PA's who'd rather not do this.
Regards,
Richard
I'd be more than happy to pay $5 to get an answer. Or DAZ can change their policy for promo images and limit the content in them to only what's currently available in the DAZ store. Surely you can make an effective promo image using the thousands and thousands of products available on this site.
You would have to pay a lot more than $5 to make up for the number of vendors who would simply close up shop and switch to less thankless work if such a restriction is forced on them.
I wouldn't be. So how would that work - if you don't pay you don't see the promo images, or just the details, how much of that $5 goes to the PA or the Promo artist. I just don't get this attitude that you must know everything in the promo art. do you want to copy someones elses work so much? I find it a very puzzling stance to take.
Looking at the time it takes me to put "items used" in my gallery pictures, I don't think anyone would bother for $5.
Also, "what's currently available" can become quickly outdated as vendors move and remove their products. So even if, the time of its creation, the promo picture had only available products included, a month or three later that might not be true anymore. What would you do then? Have Daz remove those promo pictures? Have vendors/their artists remake their promo pictures? And who is supposed to keep track of what needs to be changed/removed?
While the concept itself might be nice, I can't see it applied in any sensible way.