Why not consider annual / monthly subscription for Carrara?
Realtime
Posts: 95
All,
I have resolved to stay away from Carrara and learn a new alternative - problem is...there are no alternatives to Carrara. She is that kind of awesome!
I have tried Cheetah (I do like to model there) Modo, Blender, Daz Studio, C4D but I always come back to Carrara. Why did I leave, you ask?
I have a hard time commiting to and vesting time in something that may not be here. In other words it's hard to be commited to Carrara if Daz3d isn't (at least for me).
Last night I began to ponder...and here are my thoughts...
I believe that Carrara could experience focused development and Daz3D could maintain and continual revenue stream if they moved Carrara to subscription.
I may be way off base here - but I do see it as feasible way forward. If Daz would consider it, I believe that this option aligns very well with Daz3D's business model and, in my opinion, would ensure loyalty from the Carrara customer base for future development. I can see several positives:
1. Daz would be able to allocate resources for the true development of Carrara - features added to Carrara that actually push the software forward
2. Possibly incorporate some features from Bryce and Hexagon to grow the customer base and satisfy those customers.
3. A subscription based approach would enable Daz3D to better measure future interest in Carrara and have residual income for budgeting
I would join today - if there were an assurance that Carrara would have dedicated resources assigned to her for future development.
Just for kicks: @ $199/year X 500 customers = $99,500.00/year. I am just throwing that out as a conservative number. It's worth a survey and discussion.
Daz3D, please consider!
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Comments
No. Simply... No.
Subscription in place of a perpetual license? I would drop Carrara like a hot stone, just like I did Adobe.
No,. Never.
As far as commitment is concerned,. try this, Commit yourself to (FULLY) learning Carrara over the next few years,.
Once you think that you've learned and mastered every aspect of Carrara, ...at that point, if you feel that it's incapable of doing whatever you want to make it do,. move on.
if you want to pay a regular monthly fee ,. I'll accept that payment :) but payment for software,. and guarantee of regular support are two very different and completely unconnected things.
If you want to learn or use Carrara as your main 3D application,.. then YOU need to make that commitment. (and that costs nothing)
If you want to experiment with, or learn and use other 2D or 3D software,. that has nothing to do with continuing to use carrara,. or carrara's ability to be the main workhorse.
I suppose it all comes down to "what do you want to do" with Carrara,. or any other software,. and what's currently preventing you from doing that.
Paying a regular monthly fee to allow YOU to use YOUR software,. has absolutely nothing to do with any guarantee of regular software improvements. or anything else,. the deal is that you pay monthly to allow you to use it,. that's it.
Whether the company updates that software periodically, or not, has nothing to do with the way you pay for software.
Imagine if Daz3D,. made a commitment to themselves and their customers to... "Not release a figure until it worked fully in all of their 3D figure software's" (not just the posing studio)
Releasing new figures,. is a purely financial decision,. (Daz3D is a business) ..but,. if your suggesting that DS currently sucks up all of the available financial resources of this retailing company,. and leaves nothing in the pot for any other software development,. I'd suggest you think again.
Daz Studio is freely available, and most customers who use it buy products from this store. (pay real money to purchase the things you sell for your "free" software)
the idea is that DS will encourage users to develop their interest in 3D, and explore other Daz3D products, which have more advanced features.
Carrara is SOLD to users ,. and DAZ3D decide the sales price,. if there is a lack of support funding or development funding,. then that should make the retailer review the pricing structure to enable support and development.
Whether a retailer sells products with a ONE TIME PAYMENT,. an ANNUAL PAYMENT , or a MONTHLY PAYMENT, has nothing to do with how that company updates and supports its products.
Even better when you can have your customer support, provided freely by the users themselves,. and the products you retail, made by users themselves.
Monthly subscription was why I dropped Adobe Photoshop and chose to learn GIMP. I am fine with a one-time payment for good software but monthly payment is a huge no-no for me.
I don't use Carrara though. I chose Blender over it because I did not see clear future for Carrara.
Monthly fee ?? - Don't scare me
And again: How interesting and fruitful this discussion could be if DAZ would join in. And not only this discussion!
Has anyone any idea how many Carrara users are out there? May be the unimportance of us is sadly but simply justified........
But as long as Carrara does what it does...why not use it as it is.
And again: How interesting and fruitful this discussion could be if DAZ would join in. And not only this discussion!
Carrara let make many things that the "pro" tools can do; this for me is more than enough, moreover I find it that the shader editor is brilliant and powerful like few out of there.
What really matters is: Daz did realize it?
Like most of you, I am normally opposed supporting software development via subscription - But I am more opposed to the thought that Carrara's best days are behind her. If done and done right this would tangible support of the Carrara community for Carrara. It would also enable Daz (if they are willing) to allocate resources focused directly on Carrara. It's a win/win. And while I respect 3DAGE and the rest of the opinions here. I think that the Carrara situation is a perfect example of an exception to the current subscription fad.
1. Re-engage the community - re-engage the Daz3d
2. Implement development that pulls in the Bryce and Hexagon Communities
3. interest for 3rd party plugin development will increase
4. Experience increase andmeasurable income that will allow for proportional program development without financial risk
It's worth a survey....
NO.
Why would I pay Daz a monthly fee so they could develop Carrara so I could buy more genesis blah blah stuff to use in it.?
:
,
That's the part of the equation that would be more transparent than in the past. In the past, I have felt that the purchased Carrara was, at least in part, paying for the development of the free Daz Studio. If funding was specifically for Carrara development from the community - I see a complete win / win. If it were me, and the support was there, I would contract the development - it's not rocket science.
Not a chance of me paying monthly I don't use it enough for that.
I would quite this hobby befor I pay monthly. I have so many others that compete for my time ( not to mention the hobby farm chores).
I think there an easy way of doing that. Find some features you really need. Post a request for plugin development. Manage to rally enough Carrara user to make a developer interested. And last, but not least, buy the plugin :-)
HeadWax managed that with VWD integration, so it can be done.
It won't be Carrara 9, but it will be a Carrara you'll be pleased to work with and an evolving one for that matter. And, who knows, maybe Daz will be interested to bundle some plugins (a new version at no cost) and, why not, open more of the SDK to external developers. In other words, Daz is not interested in developing, but might be in selling.
Agreed. DAZ' goal with Carrara does not seem to match the users' goals.
Interesting idea and thread. I just don't think the average Carrara user would want to pay more for the Carrara they have already. If I paid $60 for it three years ago, no way a subscription would end up costing me less than that.
Okay, in fairness, I guess I should ask just how much would the proposed monthly subscription to Carrara 8.5 cost? If in the under $10 / month range, then it will likely remain affordable....but it would take a LOT of users to generate enough income to do anything feasible with.
Any more than $10 / month, and Carrara simply becomes too expensive.
If the logic of your argument is that Carrara lacks development because of lower revenues from sales, then generating more income from sales of Carrara is sound advice. But as you yourself have noted, income from sales of Hex, Bryce and Carrara are siphoned into DS development, so still no good.
Yes, I want Carrara to be developed, but as a newly loyal user, I simply don't want to have to pay double or triple for it as the subscription model leads to after a couple of years of paying monthly. I'd much prefer Daz3d find ways to bring in new users.
The real problem here at Daz3d in my opinion, is that they don't have a hold of a truly world class state of the art package, not even Carrara qualifies, They are focused on hobbyists only, and for that reason don't have much drive or available resources to develop their software. Simple as that. Professionals demand professionalism and have the deep pockets to fund said development. Professionals can afford to drop thousands of dollars on multiple licenses for studios.
So in Conclusion
1. Monthly subscription is a certain No-No. Users simply cannot afford it regardless of its other potential benefits. There's no way around this fact. This alone is the deal breaker. Maybe if there were millions of Carrara users this wouldn't be the case. But as it seems to be now, perhaps only a few thousand users intermittently, its not a solid foundation to build a subscription model upon.
2. Even if the subscription model was adopted, there would be no way to guarantee that development dollars would be funneled back toward Carrara.
3. With applications such as Blender on the front, free of charge and in constant development from volunteers, Carrara development would always lag behind. Who wants to code for Carrara's ancient languages when there are newer languages available? Coding for Carrara is no labour of love, you'll have to pay them handsomly.
4. The actual amount of development Carrara would need to become first rate competitive again is incredibly great. A decade sized development gap isn't overcome in one development cycle.
5. And even IF Carrara did receive development, how far should it go? Should it develop to the point where it becomes competitive with Maya and Max? Because the world already has Maya and Max, so unless the new Carrara can offer me the same as Max but for less, or perhaps more than Max, I just dont see people leaving Max and Maya behind to adopt Carrara.
6. Daz sucks at turning hobbyists into professionals. If Daz3d had been smart, they would have a progressive route where the next level tool was available on the Daz site and indeed compatible with the other entry level applications. So if they offer Bryce and DS as entry level...for the mere hobbyist and then allow the second tier...Carrara and Hexagon for the casual user who is ready to learn how to produce content themselves, then great. But the gurus here dont' even use software available here, they use MODO and the like. So if a person really wanted to get serious in 3D they'd have to upgrade to packages that don't exist here on this site. Once people outgrow DS and Bryce, they arent encouraged to move to Carrara, they are encouraged to move elsewhere. If the gurus at Daz3d actually used Carrara and Hexagon daily as they expect us to do, they'd see the necessity in fixing and developing. But right now, it saddens me to think that not even the people who run this site could truly model a V8 using Carrara even though it has the rigging and modeling capabilites, they arent on par with more modern Modo or even Blender.
7. The reason Autodesk can afford to develop their software is that their users have Hollywood Studio sized budgets, can afford to buy 100 licenses to power their render farms the size of entire office building floors. There's a reason it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to produce these movies nowadays, and it isn't all being spent on actor's salaries. Unless Daz3d can tap into the professional market and its huge funds, selling software one copy at a time to flaky non- committed hobbyists simply won't cut it.
Speaking of that, I'm still drooling over the thought of a python API into Carrara one day!
When I see the way Studio and Poser are constantly improved by script writers, you may be right. In the other hand, PyCarrara from Frederic Ribles wasn't such a success.
Anyway, building a Python interface for Carrara isn't difficult, it's just time consuming. I did one for VWD bridge and I know how to do it. I just don't have the time and I won't start that kind of project. If any of you know a willing programmer, I would be happy to give a detailed head start and help along the way.
There is also the matter of Carrara plugin economy. I think I could write the first version in 2 weeks full time. How many copies can I sell at what price. Will that pay for the work done ? I'm not sure. That's what I wanted to say when I said that plugin had to be pre sold.
For instance, I'm pretty sure that I won't get much from VWD bridge. I don't care because I did it basically to have VWD in Carrara. I won't give it away because it will require maintenance and that has a cost.
Look at this image carefully and tell me what you don't see...
That statement says it all!!!
all these reasonings could be applied to daz studio and not to carrara; carrara is currently for hobbists while daz is going to be used by pros more and more, claiming more features and more contents to speed up the workflow. Such a business proposal for carrara from daz would be ludicrous as things stand
Philemo, would you be recruitable for a fbx export improvement within carrara?
Definitely the worst idea that has ever been proposed here. The worst.
A few thousand? No way it's that high.
LOL. There is no professional design/VFX studio in the world that uses Daz Studio for final output of anything that would be considered even remotely A-list projects. At best it's used pre production, pre viz stuff. Nothing more.
@magaremoto
The short answer is no in the short term
. A longest one is that there is nothing in the SDK about the FBX exporter. It means that I would need to rewrite it completely from scratch.
Really? The intention for the post is deeper than just the suggestion. The intention of the post is to progress the conversation concerning the future of Carrara. If limited funding is the issues, any option should be considered (at least for those who care). If, on the other hand, the lack of Carrara development is the result of a deliberate decision to phase the software out - then any suggestion is a nonstarter. While I think that later may be the case, any serious conversation explores all options. Of course, you are always welcome to bring your own suggestions, maybe you have the silver bullet.
My point excactly - it has been that way for quite a while. Although many have made the obsevation and have pitched a fit - Carrara continues to be pushed into the background. If this post does nothing more than get people thinking outside the box on how Carrara can move forward - that's good.
Partially correct: daz figures and props are being used by pros in games, as walk-ons in crowd scenes shots, in science and technical documentaries...
@ Philemo: not from scratch you might start from here: http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/20112/FBX_SDK_HELP/index.html?url=WS1a9193826455f5ff453265c9125faa23bbb5fe8.htm,topicNumber=d0e8312 (kidding
)
Pity we can't export carrara morphs into houdini or 3dmax/maya like DS does via fbx. Carrara would be a nice addiction in many pipelines for its ease of use and many other useful features
@Realtime: I understand your point of view but you can't get on to a lame horse, you can only find another one better to keep on the ride
So... the background stuff that doesn't really matter. Hey, whatever gets you though the day...
Yes, really. The worst.
sorry Realtime, it's a great idea to bring something like this up, thank you.
I think most Carrara users don't have any fondness for Daz any more - for various reasons.
If you look at how much money we have spent here over the years http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/58113/daz-abandons-carrara-users-because-we-don-t-buy-enough-content-how-many-pages-do-you-have-in-your-p/p1
yet they continue to keep us in the dark.
User frustration means that we are less than likely to contribute to a scheme like you are suggesting.
If it was a feel good situation then maybe.
Daz bought Carrara to keep it out of the hands of the opposition - whoever they used to be ;)
Personally I am happy with Carrara as it is, especially with the plugin cloth sim (thanks Philemo).
Daz has saved me a lot of money by ignoring its Carrara user base. I'm happy for that also :)
This is a good idea. Carrara development is good. It would be a good thing to support this. Tomorrow will be a good day.
For any Twilight Zone fans.