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...what I would like to see, is a full pointer menu driven UI like other graphics programmes employ. This includes moving about the workspace without having to resort to keyboard commands. Some of us who haven't become that experienced with Blender to the point of having our own custom setups would welcome this type of change. It may seem alien to those who have been with the programme since it's inception but for many of us used to menu/pointer driven UIs, the current setup and UI is clunky and clumsy.
Any programme has a learning curve, the idea is to not make it so difficult that it gets in the way of the task (like modelling) one wishes to learn.
When I was looking for a modelling program; I found the ones that were menu-driven awkward to use; they interrupted what I was doing to find the menu. The short cut key let me carry on using my mouse, whilst accessing the short cut. The one thing I had to do was learn how to seperate left hand and right hand actions. The most commonly used short cuts are in muscle memory now. A bit like Control C and V for copy and paste in just about all programs. Very few tutorials exist for blender, that show the manual options, which of course doesn't make it easy for those that don't like short cuts; actually I don't ever remember seeing one.
When I was first learning Blender, I spent a day, taking note of the commonly used short cuts. I sure can appreciate how that could put a person off.
I did the opposite and started trying out menu options and then learning the keys for the ones I used repeatedly.
I'll never understand why Blender by default has the camera on left click and select on right click. Once you get rid of that option everything else becomes much simpler.
Thanks, yea.. I had gotten the basics from the wiki but it didn't offer any examples or a very thorough explanation (surpise that ;) this part from the forum gives me a little more to work with though:
Basically what I figured was next to try from what little the documentation said... It's so much easier when someone does it for you and posts a nice YouTube video :p
I played with that when it first came out but it was set up quite diferently then I would have so I put it aside temporarily. I'm about ready to revisit it though. Properly set up context sensitive menus are key to having a good efficient workflow I believe, along with single shortcut keys for the most commonly repeated features.
I like it that way.
It has that already. Every function that can be accessed through a shortcut is available through a menu. It's just that most people that do tutorials find the shortcut keys so much more efficient that it's how they teach. If you look through the menus you will find all of the functionality and more.
Not disagreeing with that part
So I installed Sensei Format to see what it looked like.....I like his layout and some other things, but am running into slight issues in that I've now gotten used to some basic shortcuts in Blender, and not all of them are the same. I'm going to keep pushing through on it though, at least for a few more days, to see if it's something I really want to do or not.
Yes that's what originally put me off but some of the functionality is so nice that it realliy deserves careful consideration I think. I looked at the forums because of an earlier comment about issues with it and I have to say, I don't see a lot of comments regarding issues. That's not to take away from any issues anyone might have or have had, just that the overall track record looks pretty good for an add-on this substantial. Also I noticed that the creator seems to repsond pretty quickly and has done so for a while now.
If I end up using the add-on, I'll modify it so that the shortcut keys match my workflow better but that's not too much of an issue for me anymore as I'm at the point I'm going to heavily modify the Blender default keys anyways. Since I wanted to create some tutorials, I'm not sure how that will work out but I just can't stick with the base interface anymore as I find it too ineficient for my needs. Perhaps I can convince Jonathan Williamson to suggest some of my changes to the next version of Blender if they seem applicable to a wider audience.
...for me (being mildly dyslexic) , having to remember hot key combinations right of f the bat doesn't work. Learning hotkey shortcuts is a more advanced technique that should not be thrown at a new user "out of the box". That is the biggest complaint I have with the way Blender is set up.
Yes, I understand why now. I volunteer for an organisation that deals with dyslexia, dyscalcula, as well as those with various special needs; IT and the arts attracts those with dyslexia I believe.
Again, you don't have to. Everything, I repeat, everything you can do with a shortcut can be done through a menu. Blender is "not" set up so that anyone has to use shortcut keys.
The problem is that it SEEMS like it is due to the way pretty much every tutorial you see is set up. For users that know the commands these are great but for brand new users things like "select g z 10 e x 14" is completely useless. Once I stopped trying to watch tutorials like this and started reading the manual for myself I made a lot more progress, but I think a lot of people hit this entry wall thanks to tutorials all being designed for existing users.
When Blender came out, there was no manual. There was no YouTube. The interface was terrible, followed no standards and was only really useable by hardcore people who were so into 3D that they refused to give up. I was that sort of person and still couldn't make it work for years. Right now, anyone can explore the menu system and make it work. There are some gotchas, but those gotchas effect everyone who uses Blender, regardless of if one uses shortcuts or menus.
As to the tutorials on YouTube, that's the choice of the people who make those tutorials. Yes it can be frustrating that advanced Blender users are so focused on using certain basic shortcuts that they don't ever go to the menus for those functions but that is the choice of the people making the tutorials. They are going to show their workflow. If anyone wants a workflow based on menus from the start, unfortunately they will have to do some more digging into manuals and self experimentation as lx mentioned.
It's fully understandable the reasons someone would want to use it totally menu based and it shouldn't be discounted. This is only meant to clarify some misconceptions about Blender.
Something else that should be clarified about the shortcuts in training videos. There are actually only a few shortcuts that people tend to use regularly in many of the videos. For much of the functionality other then the very basic often repeated functions the person doing the tutorial often goes to the tool panel, properties panel, button bars, menu bars, etc... The fact that the often few shortcuts they use are used 'a lot' can give the perception that there are a lot of shortcuts being used when in fact, it's less then a dozen, sometimes as little as 5 or 6, just repeatedly used.
Edit: I appologize I don't always explain things as well as I should and when I realize that, I try to go back and rephrase my explanation in a way I would have liked to in the first place.
"Online tutorials can be misleading for new users" isn't an excuse, it's an observation. The program has a certain reputation to non-users because of things like this. You absolutely can use the program in many different ways, but if new users don't know they're there then they aren't going to know to look for them.
I'm not saying anything actually needs to be changed - I don't even think the interface needs reworking, other than more tooltips added because the current ones are great when they exist - simply pointing out why people who haven't been using Blender for years are likely to misunderstand things about it.
I believe the real issue is that Blender is a complex application with many sub applications such as **video editing, 2D animation/onion skinning, compositing for all of the different functions it uses, animation tools, 3D modeling & texturing, sculpting, game engine, multiple render engines, etc... etc... and all of that is before even looking at the 1000's of add-ons. That much packaged into a single application can be very challenging to get comfortable with. Add to that some very definate gotchas and non standard design choices and it makes it even more challenging.
Considering how powerful it is and the fact it is free is amazing though and worth all of it's challenges for many of us. Yes there are things just about any Blender user would like changed, some more then others, but surprisingly those things vary widely because of how diverse the user base is.
The videos available on YouTube tend to follow some trends that focus on a small subset of the application and way of using it. I know that sounds crazy but it's true. If one looks at all of the functionality available in the different menus, panels, etc... it becomes readily apparent that for all of the videos out there, there are areas of Blender that never or rarely get touched.
** any one of these being complete, very involved applications on their own normally. Even Maya, 3DS Max or any other application for that matter, attempts this.
Something to consider in regards to the whole complexity issue. I happen to have a use for just about every aspect of Blender myself so mastering Blender's various parts means I can use one tool to do what in any other case would require a half dozen separate applications and moving my work through those different applications. Anyone who's done much importing/exporting can appreciate keeping that down to a minimum.
For anyone who is only interested in certain functionalities of Blender, the big challenge may be to sort out and focus on the parts that pertain only to the areas that individual cares about, ignoring the rest. Some, like me, have a hard time with that (as anything that doesn't have to do with the task at hand can add visual clutter.) This particular issue is a big part of why I'm hopeful for 2.8 where we are supposed to get tools to customize the interface without having to resort to (sometimes pretty involved) python scripting.
Some things just occurred to me about how tutorials do start immediately into using shortcuts, which upon reflection I think could do some unintentional disservices.
First, I agree that for a substantial amount of people, possibly the majority, would find it easier to start with tutorials that use menus for everything, other then perhaps rotating the screen around. Even for that I think the shortcuts should be rethought to make them more intuitive. Also, it would be helpful if there were a visual widget or widgets like DAZ has for those that would rather use that.
Second, starting right into using shortcuts gets people focused on a workflow that minimizes the use of menus to the point that people aren't either as encouraged or as likely to explore the other menu items. This can in turn stint the overall workflow. I see a consistant trend to use a couple basic functions, mostly a repetition of extrude, scale, rotate, of a basic box modeling technique when other techniques such as modifers, curves, etc.. would be substantially more efficient.
Learning a lot of shortcuts is not easy, especially if one isn't using the program daily. This contributes to using simple repetitive steps that could be shortcut drastically with above mentioned alternatives.
These are some of the reasons Blender could use a redesign of the interface. It would still be nice for people to be able to use certain shortcuts for when the basic repetitive functions are appropriate, but there should be alternatives that are not buried or over complicated for people who find that workflow inefficient or unworkable. Creatively, some people are visually oriented enough that seeing a well laid out interface just makes the difference between artistic expression and an unhappy chore.
It would be nice to have some tutorials that start with the menus and introduces the shortcuts as an intermediate (and optional) step. I will definately plan that into any tutorials I put together based on the feedback people took the time to give here.
I really don't see the purpose of having to learn more then 20 or so shortcuts (beyond the typical cut/copy/paste type of shortcuts) for most people even for those who do like to use shortcuts. Between a handful of direct shortcuts and some shortcuts that pull up menus that are appropriate for the given task hopefully the total number could be heavily optimized from the clutter that exists now. 90% of the shortcuts are never used. Of the ones that are, more could be if they weren't either lost in the clutter or if they were better laid out so they made more sense.
It would be nice to move the community towards a point where anyone could approach it with no background and be able to step into it with an enjoyable, empowering experience on how to get Blender to do what they would like it to do, even if it's for one of the many sub uses that have cropped up like only video editing or 2d animation.
That in the end is some of the Blender communities goals, it's just that it's a bit "off-road" getting there.
Right most programs are approached via "menus, then shortcuts" whereas the majority of tutorials I've seen around for Blender are "shortcuts only." While this is fine for efficient workflow it's unnecessarily confusing for a beginner and doesn't encourage exploration. The features are all there in the program - it's just the way people tend to present it to other people that can lead to misunderstandings.
Also, I don't know about in the past, but today Blender's manual is really good. Everything is explained so well (there are probably things missing from it I don't know about but it's still extremely helpful.)
Looking at the interface now, I just realised that while I have the toolbar (T) displayed, in the past I only ever used it for remove doubles and merge, which I've since put on easier hotkeys - which means I only use the toolbar for the recent tool thing (whatever it's called; the thing where you set specifics in operations you just did) and grease pencil. Just a random observation.
I still think Blender is the most amazing piece of software out there. The amount of features, the sheer number of different things it does, how well it's designed and polished and yet entirely open source is astounding. There are so many things in it I've never even touched or am hesitent to get into learning that I can't imagine running out of new things to do with it. While I use it almost exclusively as a modeller, I'm pretty sure that if I actually got more into the other features I'd rarely ever have to go to another program for anything - and that's before even going into addons, which I haven't really explored either.
Also LoopTools is super handy, so thanks again, Cris. I can't believe this addon isn't part of the default set of commands.
Err, there is a visual widget; I've disabled it as it gets in the damn way; it gets in the way in Daz too, but its kinda needed.
For rotating the screen/workspace? I'm not aware of it, just the widget for rotating an object/objects (or, verts/edges/faces in edit mode.)
A bit of trivia from early days of 3D software. There didn't used to be a base grid to let people know when they were rotating the workspace vs an object and it was very easy to confuse. Add to that, rotating an object in object mode has very specific implications in regards to how textures get applied, the way some modifiers act, etc... all of which were rarely explained well and a common problem people ran into. It took years and various modifications to minimize this. It's still an issue that new people have to learn to 'apply' rotation, translation and scale to objects before performing certain tasks such as uv unwrapping.
ahh sorry, I misread.
I should engage brain; and eyes /nod
Easy to miss in long posts that are trying to cover a lot of ground.
I use about 5 shortcut keys frequently and I use rest of functions via menu or icons on the interface and I don't use rearranged interface. I use the default interface.
I am not so sure why anyone thinks Blender is hard. But it - is - a complicated application for sure. It has to be with what it can do.
I've been taking the time and going through the Blender Sensei "Crash Course" tutorials.....I think he does a good job of a) showing the menu items first, and b) explaining what he's doing when he does use a shortcut.
Even though I've picked up a lot of this stuff through the manual and other tutorials, it would have made my life a bit easier if I'd watched some of these first.
Thanks for the input Sura. Hopefully it will encourage people who might be put off by it otherwise. :)
One of the things that impresses me about the Blender Sensei interface changes is that they appear to be well thought out. The creator/designer took the time to consolidate things for a given task that are typically spread among multiple menus and panels.
..this is what I see when I open Blender (not much different than 8 years ago)
This is what I am much more used to and would like to see:
You can set things however you like and then just save startup and it'll remember the look you want.
This is what I see when I open Blender... changed "All Scenes" on the top right to "Visible Layers." Changed the properties tab to be on something useful like modifiers, deleted the camera and light (because I don't render in Blender) ditched the timeline by dragging the main window down to replace it, set my own scale and a few other things, then save startup file. So about a minute of changes and done, not even any fancy customising.