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so even though I have accepted the OLD EULA when I have installed the old content in the past, I have to agree to this NEW one to get OLD stuff?
This is a reply DAZ_Kevin gave in the main EULA discussion thread
There had better be another option then DIM for downloading and installing content.
I assume that is download/install manager.
I see two extremely quick and easy solutions to all this nonsense.
1) DAZ should simply STOP ALL access to previously purchased products. No more download resets for anybody, ever! Either that, or charge for an extended download service like SM does (or charge a fee for resetting downloads). DAZ never said in any legally binding agreement that you'd be able to download anything you buy at any time you like, it was just a store policy, and store policies are subject to change at the store owner's whim - no notice needed! If you need your old downloads reset, you should have kept the installers, or backed up your files. If you have not done this obvious thing, it's not DAZ's fault and you should do so now for everything you have on hand!
2) The best and easiest answer is to release The Millennium Cow!! EVERYONE HERE would agree to ANY EULA just to get that Cow in their Runtimes!! I know. I personally spoke to everyone who ever bought anything at DAZ, and without exception they all agreed. Yes, that may have just been a dream - but dreams are still real to me, and therefore they count as a legally binding contract!
There are more solutions, like put the EULA on the download reset buttons so people can still get their currently available downloads and have access to their accounts without agreeing to something they are uncomfortable with, and DAZ can still stop any new downloads if the agreement is not accepted - but that would be too easy and sensible for a place like this...
There had better be another option then DIM for downloading and installing content.
I assume that is download/install manager.
DIM is optional, you have been told all the way along that it would be optional. If you don't want to use it, then you just download as per normal. Once DIM is fully implemented and all files are converted to zips, then Stan should be a happy boy. THey are making great headway with the conversions.
There had better be another option then DIM for downloading and installing content.
I assume that is download/install manager.
yes you can still do it the old way !
You can still install the Zip files manually,.
But that makes no sense at all,. since there is no Installer or un-installer,. (just a Zip) so,. any files you manually install from Zip files, will need to be removed manually,. and any product updates will also need to be handled manually,. if they even show up as updates,
as DIM (Download Install Manager) has played no part in installing your files,.. if you install them manually,.
If someone gave you a digger (JCB) etc.., would you choose to dig a hole with a shovel manually,... really.
Hi Cool art dude :)
Even with the old (installer base EULA) if,.. for example:, you downloaded a product update,. then the licence you agree to when installing that product update,. "Overwrites" the old EULA which you agreed to when you installed the original product.
Any new agreement,. replaces and overwrites the terms of any older agreement.
most of the time the terms and conditions under which you can use the product,. remain the same.
Hope that makes sense :)
Andy, I know you're really up on the new content manager and DIM, but there are reasons people may not want to go that way, and it has nothing to do with wanting to do extra work. ;-)
My personal concerns are privacy and security. Both of these either require or want a direct 'net connection. I know DAZ already knows what I bought from them, so it's not DAZ itself that I'm concerned about, except I don't think it's their business where and when I choose to install my products. While they may not track this information now, it would be extremely easy to implement a "feature" like that in the future. Worse, it could be possible for hackers to use it as a back door into your system, especially if you have to allow the software certain permissions to do it's job.
In my case at the moment, I don't have to worry about it, as my legacy system isn't supported, and the DIM won't run.
I'm with Sockratease and his Millennium Cow.
I just agreed to the thing and got my downloads. Didn't seem unreasonable to me. But then again, I'm a PA and I like how Daz3d protects me any way they can. How does one get this tool? 'spose I should check my e-mails, huh? I loathe that place, my e-mail. Scares me.
HI Evilproducer,. :)
I know it's a tough ask to have people download and install into an new system, and it's a choice, so people can choose to download and install manually,. but there are no installers now,. and no un-installers,. so the process will be more work or more complicated to understand and deal with,.. if you're a new user.
Some of the most common questions in the forums are "where do I install these files,.. and,.. What files should I download,
DIM is designed to make that a whole lot easier.
Ultimately whatever works for the individual,... works.
As far as the DIM having a direct connection,.
If you're connected to the internet, then you have a connection which "could" "potentially" be hacked into.
When you run DIM,. it has a little screen where you need to input your user password,. and it verifies that password against the user account you've set up in DIM,.
Which is the same process as coming to the web store here, and logging in to access your account.
Whether you're downloading files from your Daz store account, or using DIM, you're still creating a download stream from that Daz server, through your ISP, to your system.
Potentially all of those points are vulnerable to attack from hackers, but firewalls and security software protect servers and ISP's and your system from invasion.
As for the data or stat's which "Could" potentially be uploaded to Daz3D,. there's no more information than "could" potentially be sent when you log into the Daz store, or open up a Daz3D application, which is actually a much better idea, than using DIM as some sort of surveillance device.
Ultimately, "IF" Daz were to receive thousands of data files, from all the users, which detailed the list of products installed, or products being used regularly,. "which DIM had installed",. not only would it take someone a long time to dig through it all,. (to find what).... but the data would be pointless. use of products, or products installed by DIM.
They already know what you purchased, and you can only download and install files from your account using DIM.
Dim Cannot see any other files on your system,. other than the files it downloads from your account.
I've tried it,. and even other Zip files added to the DIM downloads folder don't show up in DIM.
What's happening on your system that stops DIM from running ?
It's a 32 bit app,. so it should be able to run.
You're so right! I've eyed that cow up since day one and my finger is hovering over the buy button as I type...
As for the EULA I don't see any way round it and don't really understand what's changed so ignorance is bliss!
Hi Cool art dude :)
Even with the old (installer base EULA) if,.. for example:, you downloaded a product update,. then the licence you agree to when installing that product update,. "Overwrites" the old EULA which you agreed to when you installed the original product.
Any new agreement,. replaces and overwrites the terms of any older agreement.
most of the time the terms and conditions under which you can use the product,. remain the same.
Hope that makes sense :)
Yes, that makes sense and it's completely in order with new bought content and updated content when installed.
But: despite DAZ changed the most critical part of EULA already, there's still this:
"This EULA supersedes and replaces any license agreement that was or will be presented at the time of content installation."
So: even if you download some older stuff which wasn't updated (besides of turning into a zip-file in the near future) the new EULA rules over the old EULA. And this is problematic.
I guess no one has a problem with the content of the new EULA (it gives some clarification on new stuff (3D-printing) and gives actually more rights to the customer), but with it's form. Changing the foundation of a fulfilled contract afterwards jeopardizes the stability of contract law.
Maybe for most that sounds like academic nitpicking (my "Korinthenkacker" is way soundier then nitpick :) ), but I've followed some of the discussion regarding the switch from GPL 2 to GPL 3 and whether I like it or not "nitpicking" is the only way to go with in legal questions.
"This EULA supersedes and replaces any license agreement that was or will be presented at the time of content installation for content released or updated on and after February 8th 2013. Content bought or updated before February 8th 2013 will be distributed under all of the terms and conditions of the EULA in place when the content or an update was first installed, which is indicated by the EULA presented during first installation of content or an update of content."
Or follow socratease and let the millenium cow make a big, stinky dropping on all this :)
Frank wrote:
Here's a way to look at why it's a good thing to be able to uninstall at will. :)
if you're installing stuff into multiple Runtime / Content folders, then it's an easy way to move a product from one runtime to another.
if you decided to juggle things in your folders to organize them in a different way.
you'd select the product, or products, from the list in DIM, and click uninstall.
then you'd install them from your archive of Zips,. into whatever folder you choose.
or,..
let's say you download some Daz freebie,. you install it, and maybe you use it a few times,. Time passes,... and the product remains there on your drive,. serving no function,. but you leave it there,.. because currently, un-installing it means finding the uninstaller short-cut, and clicking a few times on the ok and yes boxes.
So it's easy to accumulate files you're not using,. and yes,. I know how cheap Hard drive space is now,. :) . I have 2 1TB drives and an external 1TB archive,. But,.. having a load of files on your system,. especially with content applications, where files are being refreshed, then, the more files your program has to read through, the longer it takes to do that.
If you can make the installation, and un-installation processes much easier,. EG: open DIM, select file from list, click "Install" button.
then you make it easier to run a system where you have your Main, "key content" like the figures, and some clothing, hair, textures etc,.. installed all the time,.. and you can selectively install other products from an archive whenever you need to use them. ....then uninstall them again when you're done..
That saves you drive space,. and should make your application run faster when it's dealing with content and scanning through libraries.
:)
Must admit, I was never eager to include the uninstaller until I met Genesis and the need to uninstall before installing the latest version. 3dage says it true!
Hi Andy,
I know I'm going to come off sounding like a member of the Tin Foil Hat Club™, but here goes:
I'm no code jockey, but as far as I know, when you run software like that, it's opening a path through your firewall and keeping it open as long as the software is running. Yes, it's password protected, but then again, so were accounts at the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, DHS, etc. All organizations with more money and expertise than DAZ quite frankly.
As to what the software sees and doesn't see, I can't say, but the potential is there for abuse in the name of marketing. You don't need somebody sitting at a terminal watching what people are doing in real time. Mathematical algorithms do the heavy lifting. The value of the data, even if it's just what you purchased and installed through the DIM can be used to push similar products. Thinl of how Amazon suggest things to you based on past purchases. It sounds fairly benign, until they start using portions of the interface to serve ads, which would come through your bandwidth and reside in cache on your system. The data is a commodity as well. Something that can be bought and sold. Maybe right now DAZ promises they won't sell information, but as evidenced by the change in the EULA, it's no guarantee that it will stay that way.
Windows users are used to a lot of bloatware and ad-ware, especially if they buy low cost pre-built PCs that come loaded with free software or trial software. As a Mac user, I'm fortunate that Apple never stooped to that as a revenue stream. I tried D/S for awhile, but stopped when it became apparent that I was being served web based ads in the interface. I was willing to make some trade-offs to use the software, but not that. This is just my opinion, but I feel it's only a matter of time before DAZ starts pushing ads in the program's interface (especially if these wonderful new apps are "free"). The ads would potentially be based on the contents of your hard drive and past purchases. Some people may consider this convenient, but I would consider it an invasion of privacy.
The DIM only looks at what the programmers tell it to look at. Since the doorway is already open, I doubt it would be hard to introduce code to scan your HD for Poser style runtimes and either consolidate or create a database of all your content as a feature in DIM 2.0
To answer your question, it's a 32 bit Intel Mac application. I have a 64 bit PPC system. It's not the bits, it's the chips. ;-) That's why it won't run.
BTW, I was curious to see what it was about, and couldn't run it. I did look at the read me and manual and decided at that time that maybe it was a good thing I couldn't run it.
You know, you made me a bit angry right there. I'm sorry it makes no sense to you, but that's all I ever did with the installers: installed to a dummy folder, then moved the files where I wanted them. I started a folder structure many, many years ago; I have content from a really wide range of sources, including ones that don't exist anymore. It's a structure that makes sense to me. I like knowing what files are being installed, and where they're going; I understand the products better.
And I refuse, simply refuse, to install everything again, and try to coordinate that with content from four different drives and at least twenty different sources. I'm sorry it makes no sense to you, but you have no business belittling me for that choice. None.
Hi Google! :)
My curiousity is piqued now...I want to checkout this DIM thing and see if I can spot it doing anything malevolent. Maybe there is a subroutine called EvilCackle() or GlobalDazDomination() or...worse! (Sorry ep, can't resist a little good natured ribbing here)
I'm enough of a code jockey to tell you that it's not quite like that.
An application has to be expecting incoming connections to be vulnerable as you describe, and DIM most likely doesn't do so because it's just a simple client. It makes no sense for it to be open to attack like that.
To attack your system via DIM, the servers to which it connects would have to be compromised.
I'm enough of a code jockey to tell you that it's not quite like that.
An application has to be expecting incoming connections to be vulnerable as you describe, and DIM most likely doesn't do so because it's just a simple client. It makes no sense for it to be open to attack like that.
To attack your system via DIM, the servers to which it connects would have to be compromised.
I did say I was no code jockey. ;-)
To Garstor, I don't think DAZ is malevolent. I do believe that like most corporations and companies it is amoral. It's only goal is to make money. The how and why are purely economic. If DAZ could make more money making some kind of green product that helped the environment it would do it. If DAZ could legally save lots lots of money, and not suffer consumer backlash by disposing of it's used toner cartridges in some stream, it would do that as well- especially (IMHO) if it were a publicly traded company with obligations to shareholders.
I never had any user for the installers to begin with. I have my runtimes organized, I know where everything is because I put it there, I know it's ok because I checked before I put it there so no need for an uninstaller. One of the biggest issues I have with studio is the content folder and installers.
I don't need help downloading content, I don't need help installing it, I don't need help sorting it.
I never had any user for the installers to begin with. I have my runtimes organized, I know where everything is because I put it there, I know it's ok because I checked before I put it there so no need for an uninstaller. One of the biggest issues I have with studio is the content folder and installers.
I don't need help downloading content, I don't need help installing it, I don't need help sorting it.
I am using DIM - it sets up every thing just like I want it .
99% of my content isn't in the studio content folder.
99% of my content isn't in the studio content folder.
you can put your content where ever you want using DIM .
Yes!!
Cow Droppings for Everyone!!
MOO!!!
So only PC members are getting this DIM thing? it DS content only or Carrara, bryce and Poser?
At the present moment in time emails have been sent out, in the main, to PC members. It is a phased release in order to avoid server melt-down, we surmise.
Non PC members will get the same email in time.
I know at the moment it can install to DS (whatever it is that DS uses) and Poser type runtimes . I know Bryce is not supported so far, as it doesn't use anything like a runtime structure., not sure about Carrara.
I totally get this. "Don't move my cheese." I work a certain way that works for me and Spiffy-New-Thing here has jacked that up. It is stress-inducing. But oftentimes, there are ways to make Spiffy-New-Thing fit your patterns...and sometimes it is good to revise the patterns in spite of the temporary stress because you get something better.
Again, I'm not you and I have yet to try out DIM. I'm just taking this view from seeing major releases from Microsoft (SQL Server, Visual Studio, etc.) that almost feel alien until you get used to the new things...but then you find yourself hopelessly addicted to the new stuff and couldn't bear the pain of using an older version again.
Perhaps I missed something here - I'm ignoring most of the posts in this thread - but just about the very last thing on this planet that I would see Andy do is belittle someone. Even in heated disagreements.
Absolutely! Multiplied by 1,000,000,000! It's just that the stuff you worry about (gathering market data based on your installs) is stuff you are surrounded by already online. That was the reasoning behing my "Hi Google!" bit. Google and Facebook are unabashedly evil about this...but they are all bad for it...even my former employer Microsoft (yeah, shocking, I know :bug: ).
Honestly, given what we've seen from DAZ coders thus far...I think you've given them too much credit. They make darn fine 3D apps, but all this extra data collection sneakiness and analysis? It seem a bit over-the-top to me.
Hi Carlton Martin :)
I'm sorry you feel upset about that,, but i'm pointing out that it's more time consuming, and "not recommended" to do what you've been doing,.
The installers,.. and the files / folders which they are designed to install for you, has to stick to a fixed (poser) structure of folders and sub-folders,
when you move the files manually, into differently named folders,.. then not only are you defeating the purpose of having an installer / uninstaller to assist you, ..but you're risking breaking the file connections between the product, which were created when the artist made the product .
I didn't create the Poser file / folder structure,, and I may not like it very much,. but it's what we have to deal with, and when it comes down to ease of installing or removing products from your system. then using an installer which provides you with an uninstaller, and allows you to choose any location to install the product , seems to me like a good idea,
If you prefer to do things manually,. that's your choice, but don't let a discussion about what is or isn't a good method of file management upset you.
life is too fleeting for that
:)