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Algovincian Non-Photorealistic Rendering (NPR) 2019/2020

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  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    akmerlow said:

    Just discovered this thread. Very beautiful works! Can't even guess that they were renders initially.

    I don't fully understand though. You use.. daz studio with several npr rendering tools, is that right? While most of your models are custom zbrush/etc. done? And you don't "texture", instead you do details and colours through your (npr) rendering passes?

    Thanks for stopping by and your kind comments, @akmerlow. In short, I use DS to render a number of what I refer to as analysis passes. These renders are made after applying a number of custom 3DL shaders, with parameters set according to the original scene materials. These renders are then passed to NPR algorithms (that have been in development for longer than I care to admit). The algos are complex, but at their core, they're fractal algorithms used to generate strokes. They make decisions about which strokes to make based on the analysis passes.

    What I was trying to say earlier in the thread (but probably did a poor job), was that the figures and clothes in these images are DAZ content. I spent some time customizing the figure shapes and posing the figures using the tools in DS, but the materials are the materials we all get when we purchase the assets. Not having to redo all the mats has always been a goal/priority during development.

    Hope this explains things a bit better. I've tried and failed to explain it adequately for years lol

    If you're interested, there's additional info in these 2 threads from years ago:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54697/non-photorealistic-renders-npr/p1

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/68493/algovincian-non-photorealistic-rendering-npr/p1

    - Greg

     

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    Misselthwaite said:

    That looks incredible!  As you say, nothing to indicate CGI at all... wow!

    Worlds_Edge said:

    Looks terrific as 2D art without hinting at 3D.

    Thanks for checking them out and taking a moment to comment - it's truly much appreciated!

    - Greg

  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124
    edited May 2019

    Thank you for explanation.

    I've bought some tools in the past like Manga Style Shaders and LineRender 9000, but still haven't used them seriously -  i just occasionally render characters with PWToon, which has one of my favorite presets to use on characters for simple shading.

    I'll investigate those threads further.

    Post edited by akmerlow on
  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124
    edited May 2019

    P.S. details on clothing (which in the end looks like if you painted it) come from geometry of them, yes?

    Post edited by akmerlow on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    Texture, as well as geometry, information is definitely included in some of the analysis passes used by the algorithms to draw both the lines and the shading. Here's a link that shows the 8 render passes used:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/980556/#Comment_980556

    It's an old example and there have been changes made since then, but you'll get the idea.

    - Greg

  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124

    Interesting! Thanks for showing and explaining your creative process.

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited May 2019

    Gave him a beard and some blonde hair, though I'm unsure why it became more transparent when rendering this time:

     

    Love the simplification on the bird, but I'm not crazy about how it rendered the wolf's fur:

    Think I'm pretty much done with him. Looking forward to doing some Iray renders of him in @Strangefate's and @Roguey's amazing upcoming Medieval bedroom interior set. Do yourself a favor and check it out if you already haven't:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/4601571/#Comment_4601571

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532
    edited May 2019

    Wow, that really looks great, Greg! 

    I can't say I'm a fan of the skulls and demon boots lol I think the style and renders came out fantastic! 

    I don't know how you did it but it looks like you managed to preserve the details around the eyes and the other more "delicate"/more subtle facial details. They came out so good! Bravo! :)

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • Kaleb242Kaleb242 Posts: 344

    It's looking amazing, Algovincian Greg — that pipeline you've been developing for NPR processing must be pretty complex at this point!

    I've been experimenting with many 'off-the-shelf' apps and filters for post-processing 3d renders, photos, and videos... but nothing quite comes close to what you're creating. Many of the latest AI technologies for style-transfer and image processing algorithms for non-photorealistic render output are interesting, but suffer from undesirable artifacts — much of the visual appeal can get lost in convolutional neural networks and image processing algorithms that rely too heavily on edge detection and 2d smearing, without using depth information to create lines that follow the 3D contours of a form.

    It's so cool how you've been algorithmically 'teaching' your computer to draw, adding a level of simplification and abstraction to your work that remains both aesthetically pleasing and natural looking. These works feel less like they've been processed by a computer, and more like interpretations by a human artist... they retain much of the same visual mechanics that a traditional artist would use. Keep up the good work!

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,987
    edited May 2019
    algovincian said:

    I could definitely render out another mask pass for eyes and then use it in processing, but my preference would be to use a more general tool.

    One such tool is already is development - it's basically an asset for DS that allows for one or more billboards to be positioned in front of the camera and rendered only for the z-depth pass. Each billboard can be morphed, positioned, and keyframed. They basically allow me to define areas to "focus" on (draw differently in the various styles). It's done while setting up the scene and maintains the possibility of animation with ability to keyframe.

    Here's a concrete example showing the z-depth pass with and without the billboards focusing on the wolf's eyes:

     

    The image on the left is just the straight z-depth. You can see in the processed image below that portions of the wolf closer to the camera are drawn differently than those far away. The image on the right shows the billboards contribution, which causes the algos to focus even more on the eyes:

     

     

    I could do the same for the human figure's eyes, or the bird's eyes, or anthing else in the scene for that matter (doesn't have to be eyes).

     

    - Greg

    Nice. I'm awed by your grasp of the Studio underhood. Pity (for me) you don't use Carrara ;)

    You using an object pass for the billboards perchance?

     

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    Divamakeup said:

    Wow, that really looks great, Greg! 

    I can't say I'm a fan of the skulls and demon boots lol I think the style and renders came out fantastic! 

    I don't know how you did it but it looks like you managed to preserve the details around the eyes and the other more "delicate"/more subtle facial details. They came out so good! Bravo! :)

    Started this guy 2+ years ago and never really did anything with him, but circled back after seeing the medieval set mentioned a few posts back. Probably wasn't  the most artful kit-bash, but I remember wanting something additional for his lower body. Had far less content back then and didn't want to go with huge boots, so this is what he ended up with.

    I'd prefer something animal based as opposed to demon, too. Maybe there's something that I've purchased since then that would be a good fit. He's already going to lose the skull in favor of this shield (a wall decoration from that same upcoming set):

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/4593026/#Comment_4593026

    Love the one on the right. 

    As far as the eyes go, not sure that issue is quite licked just yet. The steampunk chic's light blue eyes are still an issue I haven't quite figured out how to deal with - doh!

    Anyway, thanks for dropping by and chiming in, Diva - always appreciated!

    - Greg

     

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    Kaleb242 said:

    It's looking amazing, Algovincian Greg — that pipeline you've been developing for NPR processing must be pretty complex at this point!

    I've been experimenting with many 'off-the-shelf' apps and filters for post-processing 3d renders, photos, and videos... but nothing quite comes close to what you're creating. Many of the latest AI technologies for style-transfer and image processing algorithms for non-photorealistic render output are interesting, but suffer from undesirable artifacts — much of the visual appeal can get lost in convolutional neural networks and image processing algorithms that rely too heavily on edge detection and 2d smearing, without using depth information to create lines that follow the 3D contours of a form.

    It's so cool how you've been algorithmically 'teaching' your computer to draw, adding a level of simplification and abstraction to your work that remains both aesthetically pleasing and natural looking. These works feel less like they've been processed by a computer, and more like interpretations by a human artist... they retain much of the same visual mechanics that a traditional artist would use. Keep up the good work!

    Very insightful comments, @Kaleb242 - both about the style transfer AI, as well as the big picture goals of non-photorealistic rendering. I've been at this for a long time, and having some mature & flexible tools has really freed me to focus on exactly these types of concepts.

    Thanks for taking the time to comment. It's always nice to hear that the output is enjoyed, but maybe even more satisfying when others recognize and appreciate some of the more technical aspects. I absolutely love talking shop about this stuff and getting into the weeds! 

    - Greg

    BTW, do you have a thread here going for your work?

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited May 2019
    Headwax_Carrara said:
    algovincian said:

    I could definitely render out another mask pass for eyes and then use it in processing, but my preference would be to use a more general tool.

    One such tool is already is development - it's basically an asset for DS that allows for one or more billboards to be positioned in front of the camera and rendered only for the z-depth pass. Each billboard can be morphed, positioned, and keyframed. They basically allow me to define areas to "focus" on (draw differently in the various styles). It's done while setting up the scene and maintains the possibility of animation with ability to keyframe.

    Here's a concrete example showing the z-depth pass with and without the billboards focusing on the wolf's eyes:

     

    The image on the left is just the straight z-depth. You can see in the processed image below that portions of the wolf closer to the camera are drawn differently than those far away. The image on the right shows the billboards contribution, which causes the algos to focus even more on the eyes:

     

     

    I could do the same for the human figure's eyes, or the bird's eyes, or anthing else in the scene for that matter (doesn't have to be eyes).

     

    - Greg

    Nice. I'm awed by your grasp of the Studio underhood. Pity (for me) you don't use Carrara ;)

    You using an object pass for the billboards perchance?

    Ya know, I got into DS in large part because of a video I saw featuring the new (at the time) Genesis 1 figure. One of my early purchases was Carrara 8.5 Pro. At the time, I had just assumed that development was ongoing - didn't really occur to me that it may not be. It was also surprising to learn that Carrara had no native scripting built in. I liked the software, but found it hard to invest any real time in it for those reasons.

    For the time being, I've added no additional passes for the "focus" billboards. They are included directly in the z-depth pass. Like pretty much everything with the algos, they started out as a manual thing that ended up getting automated once a certain maturity had been reached.

    There's a natural break in the process between the rendering of the analysis passes and the actual NPR rendering. What I would do before is open the rendered depth pass in pShop and burn the areas I wanted to focus on more. Eventually, I started thinking about how this could be done at design time while setting up the 3D scene. The idea has always been to include the ability to animate, so any manual editing by a human after the initial scene setup is really undesirable.

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    Still playing with approaches to add that elusive abstract, artistic quality to an image (the random detail & texture that the strokes of various mediums/styles bring to the table). The trick, of course, is to avoid destroying recognizable structure in the process:

    - Greg

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited June 2019

    Picked up Horror from the Deep - no idea what I'm going to use it for, but it's just so cool! This is what the algos spit out after chewing on it for a bit:

    https://www.daz3d.com/horror-from-the-deep

    Been wanting it for a long time and couldn't resist when it popped up in Fast Grab. Quick - hurry up and grab him!

    Have another one cooking with the hooded figure that came with it, too.

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • echristopherclarkechristopherclark Posts: 248

    This is fantastic, so much closer to what I'm looking to do than anything I've yet seen. I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

    (P.S. How long is a good enough time to wait before starting my own art thread? I've been playing with Daz for a while now and would love to share, but don't want to be "that" guy who starts posting his own stuff too early.)

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532
    algovincian said:

    Still playing with approaches to add that elusive abstract, artistic quality to an image (the random detail & texture that the strokes of various mediums/styles bring to the table). The trick, of course, is to avoid destroying recognizable structure in the process:

    - Greg

    That looks like a watercolor - very cool! :D

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532
    echristopherclark said:

    This is fantastic, so much closer to what I'm looking to do than anything I've yet seen. I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

    (P.S. How long is a good enough time to wait before starting my own art thread? I've been playing with Daz for a while now and would love to share, but don't want to be "that" guy who starts posting his own stuff too early.)

    If you feel the desire to share your art - share away. :D It's never too "early" imo. If you have stuff you want to get feedback on or just want to "show off" then go for it! :)

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532
    algovincian said:
    Divamakeup said:

    Wow, that really looks great, Greg! 

    I can't say I'm a fan of the skulls and demon boots lol I think the style and renders came out fantastic! 

    I don't know how you did it but it looks like you managed to preserve the details around the eyes and the other more "delicate"/more subtle facial details. They came out so good! Bravo! :)

    Started this guy 2+ years ago and never really did anything with him, but circled back after seeing the medieval set mentioned a few posts back. Probably wasn't  the most artful kit-bash, but I remember wanting something additional for his lower body. Had far less content back then and didn't want to go with huge boots, so this is what he ended up with.

    I'd prefer something animal based as opposed to demon, too. Maybe there's something that I've purchased since then that would be a good fit. He's already going to lose the skull in favor of this shield (a wall decoration from that same upcoming set):

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/4593026/#Comment_4593026

    Love the one on the right. 

    As far as the eyes go, not sure that issue is quite licked just yet. The steampunk chic's light blue eyes are still an issue I haven't quite figured out how to deal with - doh!

    Anyway, thanks for dropping by and chiming in, Diva - always appreciated!

    - Greg

     

    The planned changes sound great! :D He's such a cool character - it's going to be fun to see how he evolves! 

  • echristopherclarkechristopherclark Posts: 248
    Divamakeup said:
    echristopherclark said:

    This is fantastic, so much closer to what I'm looking to do than anything I've yet seen. I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

    (P.S. How long is a good enough time to wait before starting my own art thread? I've been playing with Daz for a while now and would love to share, but don't want to be "that" guy who starts posting his own stuff too early.)

    If you feel the desire to share your art - share away. :D It's never too "early" imo. If you have stuff you want to get feedback on or just want to "show off" then go for it! :)

    Thanks!

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited June 2019
    Divamakeup said:
    algovincian said:
    Divamakeup said:

    Wow, that really looks great, Greg! 

    I can't say I'm a fan of the skulls and demon boots lol I think the style and renders came out fantastic! 

    I don't know how you did it but it looks like you managed to preserve the details around the eyes and the other more "delicate"/more subtle facial details. They came out so good! Bravo! :)

    Started this guy 2+ years ago and never really did anything with him, but circled back after seeing the medieval set mentioned a few posts back. Probably wasn't  the most artful kit-bash, but I remember wanting something additional for his lower body. Had far less content back then and didn't want to go with huge boots, so this is what he ended up with.

    I'd prefer something animal based as opposed to demon, too. Maybe there's something that I've purchased since then that would be a good fit. He's already going to lose the skull in favor of this shield (a wall decoration from that same upcoming set):

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/4593026/#Comment_4593026

    Love the one on the right. 

    As far as the eyes go, not sure that issue is quite licked just yet. The steampunk chic's light blue eyes are still an issue I haven't quite figured out how to deal with - doh!

    Anyway, thanks for dropping by and chiming in, Diva - always appreciated!

    - Greg

     

    The planned changes sound great! :D He's such a cool character - it's going to be fun to see how he evolves! 

    Thanks, @Divamakeup - can't wait to get my hands on the set! Haven't rendered anything in Iray for ages, so I brushed up a bit today playing around rendering volmetrics with the Post Denoiser. To my surprise, it works with canvases now. Woot!

     

    echristopherclark said:

    This is fantastic, so much closer to what I'm looking to do than anything I've yet seen. I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

    (P.S. How long is a good enough time to wait before starting my own art thread? I've been playing with Daz for a while now and would love to share, but don't want to be "that" guy who starts posting his own stuff too early.)

    I'd say post away, @echristopherclark. I think you'll find the people here are friendly, helpful, and knowledgable - definitely prefer the forums to the gallery for the interaction. Looking forward to seeing your work.

    On another note, I had my minions (I love my minions) rendering away while messing around in Iray for a few hours instead of working today. The smoothing/cleaning algos have been adapted to function better with just the outlines - here's a before & after:

    I've always liked the idea of being able to render coloring book styles, and this new cleaner set of lines is a step closer to that. There's still some issues, but it's getting there!

    Here's a few more examples:

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532

    Ahhhhhh I LOVE the line art! You could do a really awesome fantasy coloring book! SO COOL!

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    Thanks, Diva. Having the new cleaner lines available allowed me to re-visit some old ideas, only execute them much better. The outlines were used to create this high contrast black & white style:

    I've always liked the use of inverted (white) lines to show details in the shadows. This style was then used in conjunction with the full color style shown at the beginning of this thread to produce these:

    I won't bore you guys by posting any more examples, but I've run a bunch more, and it consistently coughs up good looking results . . . woot!

    - Greg

  • echristopherclarkechristopherclark Posts: 248
    algovincian said:
    Divamakeup said:
    algovincian said:
    Divamakeup said:

    I've always liked the idea of being able to render coloring book styles, and this new cleaner set of lines is a step closer to that. There's still some issues, but it's getting there!

    Thanks for the encouragement. I did start a thread. Curious to see how it goes.

    Also: this work you're doing is just so good. 

  • wsterdanwsterdan Posts: 2,348
    algovincian said:

    I won't bore you guys by posting any more examples, but I've run a bunch more, and it consistently coughs up good looking results . . . woot!

    Sorry, I must have dozed... I complete missed the part where there was anything in the least bit boring in the thread... wink

    — Walt Sterdan 

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,532
    algovincian said:

    Thanks, Diva. Having the new cleaner lines available allowed me to re-visit some old ideas, only execute them much better. The outlines were used to create this high contrast black & white style:

     

    This looks SO GOOD! I think this one is my new favorite (despite the fact that I'm not a fan of scary monsters lol) - The style is just so cool! I think this one is the closest I've seen to traditional ink work. If I just saw this in a book I'd never have guessed it wasn't inked/illustrated by hand. Excellent work, Greg! 

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613
    edited June 2019
    Divamakeup said:
    algovincian said:

    Thanks, Diva. Having the new cleaner lines available allowed me to re-visit some old ideas, only execute them much better. The outlines were used to create this high contrast black & white style:

     

    This looks SO GOOD! I think this one is my new favorite (despite the fact that I'm not a fan of scary monsters lol) - The style is just so cool! I think this one is the closest I've seen to traditional ink work. If I just saw this in a book I'd never have guessed it wasn't inked/illustrated by hand. Excellent work, Greg! 

    Thanks, Diva - was pretty excited about how it turned out, too. It's a great mesh with lots of geo for the algos to chew on.

    One of the reasons I like the monsters so much is that they're more likely to have exterme/detailed geometry. Same thing goes for older figures with lots of folds and wrinkles, as opposed to the average younger human with smooth skin. It's a problem that I've been aware of but haven't figured out quite how to address for a long time now.

     

    wsterdan said:
    algovincian said:

    I won't bore you guys by posting any more examples, but I've run a bunch more, and it consistently coughs up good looking results . . . woot!

    Sorry, I must have dozed... I complete missed the part where there was anything in the least bit boring in the thread... wink

    — Walt Sterdan 

    Thanks Walt - appreciate you taking the time to comment as sometimes I'm not so sure!

    - Greg

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,613

    Here's a couple full color images with full environments. They're fairly 3-dimensional now, but I'm itching to see how much they pop as soon as some camera movement is introduced to get that great parallax effect:

    - Greg

  • WinterMoonWinterMoon Posts: 1,963
    edited June 2019

    This is so cool! It reminds me of the artists I used to follow on social media, back in the good old days when it was dominated by fun and creativity. Your pictures really look like you've painted them.

    Post edited by WinterMoon on
  • NoswenNoswen Posts: 358

    These are renders?!

    Stunning! Absolutely stunning! surprise

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