Unreal Engine renders better than NVIDIA IRAY in 1 second vs 30 minute IRAY renders-What's going on?

Sorel

bluejaunte is actually right.  It does look like there is some sort of sss going on, but not the one you should be seeing. Notice how there is a rim light on her but no sign of redening of the ears?

Leonides02

Something I think is interesting is that many of us are more forgiving with "video game-looking" characters vs those truly (near) photorealistic. Even to the point that, in some way, I do think they "look" better, even if they objectively aren't as realistic.

Maybe because we're so used to them?

timon630

Ellessarr said:

Leonides02 said:

Here is some info on photorealistic characters from Unreal's own documentation:

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Resources/Showcases/PhotorealisticCharacter/index.html

Doesn't seem too different from Iray, though of course the devil is in the details. 

And here is someone who has done a hell of a lot of great work with UE4's skin. Looks pretty photoreal to me. He uses something called a "cavity texture," which isn't something I think DAZ characters have. 

https://texturing.xyz/pages/saurabh-jethani-creating-realistic-skin-in-ue4

These actually look better than many DAZ characters, which kind of fall apart at very extremely close up due to the lack of pores, etc.

 

wow that is why i told which the problem when exporting characters to unreal or even on unreal we don't really get good resultes, because normally we only use the "most basic materials", to make a full photorealistic character, you must really know the real textures are needed, like i told you need maps, for cavities(pores), aombient occlusion, roughness, metalic, specular and how to proper setup then, it's really, really complext at firt because need good amount of texture maps for details and knowledge on how to link everything, but as soon you learn how to use it you really can get amazing results even for "game characters'(full clothed and with hairs) which much, much less polygons than some of the most high polygon count character in daz, all you need to know is how to proper setup it and get a real time character much more realistic than anything daz can pull atm, the thing is "learn how to do that" which is really the big issue, as i told i'm trying to learn that, i'm just started to learn what maps are needed and how to start to proper use then, i'm still a lot behind that for sure, but as i told i'm already started to get some good results since i can make "pores appear in the characters" but still not the better way, because it would need make learn how to make all the needed maps, which for a team of a "single man" for now is too much i'm still a lot busing in the level design and the programing the basic commands.

 

As i told i would really love to see DAZ giving more support to the "game engineer" side because it also could help the "render side" since some users are starting to move to game engineers to make renders and animations, then see daz "switching support would be cool and also, would be cool to see some DAZ / PA artists started to take a look at this and maybe try to add those things to they works(the ones working on the textures and arts). ofcourse i know which for now it can be pointless since daz don't give support to this type of work, but it can be good for a "future" and a way to improve your skills in texture development.

Everything that is shown in that video can be done in Daz (iray). 

Don't know why you find it so difficult to add maps to the skin of the character.

As said above, the problem is that not all vendors make the necessary maps.

Generally in most cases, the character looks bad, because someone doesn't know how to work with lighting.

Ellessarr

timon630 said:

Ellessarr said:

Leonides02 said:

Here is some info on photorealistic characters from Unreal's own documentation:

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Resources/Showcases/PhotorealisticCharacter/index.html

Doesn't seem too different from Iray, though of course the devil is in the details. 

And here is someone who has done a hell of a lot of great work with UE4's skin. Looks pretty photoreal to me. He uses something called a "cavity texture," which isn't something I think DAZ characters have. 

https://texturing.xyz/pages/saurabh-jethani-creating-realistic-skin-in-ue4

These actually look better than many DAZ characters, which kind of fall apart at very extremely close up due to the lack of pores, etc.

 

wow that is why i told which the problem when exporting characters to unreal or even on unreal we don't really get good resultes, because normally we only use the "most basic materials", to make a full photorealistic character, you must really know the real textures are needed, like i told you need maps, for cavities(pores), aombient occlusion, roughness, metalic, specular and how to proper setup then, it's really, really complext at firt because need good amount of texture maps for details and knowledge on how to link everything, but as soon you learn how to use it you really can get amazing results even for "game characters'(full clothed and with hairs) which much, much less polygons than some of the most high polygon count character in daz, all you need to know is how to proper setup it and get a real time character much more realistic than anything daz can pull atm, the thing is "learn how to do that" which is really the big issue, as i told i'm trying to learn that, i'm just started to learn what maps are needed and how to start to proper use then, i'm still a lot behind that for sure, but as i told i'm already started to get some good results since i can make "pores appear in the characters" but still not the better way, because it would need make learn how to make all the needed maps, which for a team of a "single man" for now is too much i'm still a lot busing in the level design and the programing the basic commands.

 

As i told i would really love to see DAZ giving more support to the "game engineer" side because it also could help the "render side" since some users are starting to move to game engineers to make renders and animations, then see daz "switching support would be cool and also, would be cool to see some DAZ / PA artists started to take a look at this and maybe try to add those things to they works(the ones working on the textures and arts). ofcourse i know which for now it can be pointless since daz don't give support to this type of work, but it can be good for a "future" and a way to improve your skills in texture development.

Everything that is shown in that video can be done in Daz (iray). 

Don't know why you find it so difficult to add maps to the skin of the character.

As said above, the problem is that not all vendors make the necessary maps.

Generally in most cases, the character looks bad, because someone doesn't know how to work with lighting.

but to achiev the same level with daz it would make you take "hours" or maybe a half to full day while with in a game enginer it's rendered in real time, which means the same result in much less time.

 

about the "dificult" the problem is having acess or know how to make all needed maps and how to apply then all in unreal, as it showed it can take a lot of time to learn at first, obvious after you proper learn how to setup everything then it's become pretty fast and easy no doubts, but the point is which to create this sort of level of realism at last in unreal you gonna need a lot of tweak and knowledge about where goes what when link the all the maps + some manually configurations, one thing is when you get a "ready to apply" material with all maps and configurations, another is when you must do from the 0 specially when you are not good at it or start to learn.

 

yeah in the end pos processing play a lot on it, on how to tweak the final product and make things looks "perfect".

Visuimag

I have to agree with those that DAZ can do much of what you see in that texturexyz vid. As mentioned, lighting, maps, and a little bit of patience is all that is needed. of course a game engine will render things faster, but the quality is there in DAZ with the right combo.

 

 

bluejaunte

Keep in mind also that Iray isn't exactly the most advanced renderer out there. You should compare Unreal renders to the likes of Arnold or Renderman for portraits, probably VRay for archviz.

As for "taking hours" vs rendering instantly. That is true with some caveats like for a typical archviz scene in UE4 you will have to generate lightmaps which takes a long time and is essentially offline rendering just like Iray. Another argument that can be made and has been the motto of Arnold is that render time is irrelevant. Your own time to set up a render is far more important. If it takes you forever to do this in Unreal because you need to fake so much and work around limitations, you have wasted so much of your precious time so that the computer can then dish out a render in a 30th of a second. Whereas if you could set the scene up much faster, you can then let the computer do what it's best at (and you could always throw more hardware at it), let it crunch the numbers and you can move on to do other work. Of course this is more from a professional point of few with expandable render farms etc, but you get the idea.

The gold standard would be both super easy setup and instant ultra realistc renders 

nonesuch00

I think https://texturing.xyz/pages/saurabh-jethani-creating-realistic-skin-in-ue4 mostly looks fine but the deltas between peak height skin surface and peak depth skin surface are too large. I think the 'valleys' / 'crevices' in the skin are too wide.

The general overall skin tone looks correct, but the eerily distributed same skin color looks wrong. If you're seeing that much skin surface that close up then even on a lady as tanned as she is you'll see subsurface anatomy features such as veins, vessels, patches that are ruddier (blood flow), patches that are creamier (fat distribution).

Parts of the forehead look more similar to blistered skin than a closeup of normal skin. 

That's only my opinion though. It's still good but what I see as needing improvement.

Leonides02

I think https://texturing.xyz/pages/saurabh-jethani-creating-realistic-skin-in-ue4 mostly looks fine 

To me, it's more than fine for something rendering in real-time.

outrider42

Keep in mind we are also covering animation here, and animation is going to be more forgiving as well. If anything, razer sharp Iray renders are LESS real, not more real. The human eye does not see all that detail without actually concentrating on that specific part of an image. We cannot really see every pore on a person's skin. But most Daz Iray renders seem to push that. I am guilty of that myself. It does look good...but it does not actually look that much more real. I think we confuse the two a lot around here. We need to turn our bump maps down some. And also, most people I see don't have shiny skin unless they are sweating some. Daz characters are often too shiny, at least universally shiny. I can't say I have seen the underside of an arm really shine unless it is actually wet, but most arms in Daz are pretty universally glossy, as is the rest of the skin. Real skin doesn't work that way. Our human hair also breaks up the appearance some of the sweat. We are miles away from that.

So that is why some of you may be more forgiving of a game character in motion. Because that lack of detail might actually benefit them in with how our visions and minds perceive them.

And like I have said before, it comes down to what a person feels is 'good enough'. We each have our own definition of that. Maybe some people want to tell a story and are not concerned about being super photoreal. There are a growing number of cartoon animations using Unreal and Unity for their final rendering output, rendering final animation in real time.

 

nonesuch00

Leonides02 said:

I think https://texturing.xyz/pages/saurabh-jethani-creating-realistic-skin-in-ue4 mostly looks fine 

To me, it's more than fine for something rendering in real-time.

Compared to yesterday's technology, yes, she doesn't look like BJ Blazkowicz in the 1st Wolfenstein 3D, but realistically? No. For today? Well it's what's available.

TDBAGZ

Flortale said:

The following is an Unreal Engine render, in which the following image takes one second to render:

The following is a DAZ STUDIO / NVIDIA IRAY RENDER, which can take up to 30 minutes or more:

What's going on here? I understand that Unreal Engine assets are optimized, but still, ONE second render vs 30 minute renders? Something is up guys.  Something is SEVERELY WRONG here.

If UNITY and Unreal Engine can produce high quality renders in less than a second, then there's no reason why NVIDIA IRAY can't adopt a mode, in which it operates at the same level as UNITY or Unreal ENgine, just for the sake of faster renders, for making animations for example.

I think companies like Unity & Unreal Engine shoudl get into the rendering business and compete against DAZ Studio, that would probably make DAZ Studio come up with a fast rendering solution.

Not apples to apples. That Unity scene is very simple (very low poly). The few textures they do have I would bet are high quality low res textures. Look at that ashtray thing ick. little to no displacement or specular gloss on the back wall or floor. The gray couch is the most impressive thing in there. Does that chair even have legs? The tabletopss may be just floating also.

The Iray scene has Far more polies, (there are probably more polys in that chandeleer than the whole of the Unity Scene.  More shaders, and more complex shaders. It even has multiple reflective surfaces. More light sources making and bouncing light off a higher number of more complex surfaces. Multiple shadows of varied hardness and length. The bicycle spokes, reflecting light from the metal. Bro.

Unity vs Unreal, Evee vs Cycles, Iray vs Octane. 

What GPU, what system specs, what render software, whats your prefered look or style. Its a soup of variables.

This example Unity vs Iray? HA!

Its a bigger room and look individual rafters with reflectance in the ceiling vs no ceiling at all. Please.

Theres not even any gloss on the marble tables.

Curtains to Curtains my god.

WendyLuvsCatz

and it's actually a 3Delight scene AFAIK

Sven Dullah

WendyLuvsCatz said:

and it's actually a 3Delight scene AFAIK

??

Ok now I'm confused...what was the topic again?

WendyLuvsCatz

Sven Dullah said:

WendyLuvsCatz said:

and it's actually a 3Delight scene AFAIK

??

Ok now I'm confused...what was the topic again?

https://www.daz3d.com/ny-living-room

I don't have it but it was released in 2016 

someone who owns it can tell us

oh see is optimised for iray, missed that 

Leonides02

I don't know, to me this is pretty impressive. Even if it's only rendering at, say, 1 FPS. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

WendyLuvsCatz

what we need is more people actually using both so we can problem solve and brainstorm 

there are two very divided groups

the users who will never venture out of DAZ studio but want all these features 

then the people who hook up Blueprints like they are making a sandwich and are scripty wizards of great power wielding wands of C++ speaking in tongues we plebs cannot comprehend.

then

there is Wendy pushes buttons sees what happens and freezes her computer up .....

Sven Dullah

Leonides02 said:

I don't know, to me this is pretty impressive. Even if it's only rendering at, say, 1 FPS. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

I agree!

Sven Dullah

WendyLuvsCatz said:

what we need is more people actually using both so we can problem solve and brainstorm 

there are two very divided groups

the users who will never venture out of DAZ studio but want all these features 

then the people who hook up Blueprints like they are making a sandwich and are scripty wizards of great power wielding wands of C++ speaking in tongues we plebs cannot comprehend.

then

there is Wendy pushes buttons sees what happens and freezes her computer up .....

...wait that's 3 groups?

WendyLuvsCatz

Sven Dullah said:

WendyLuvsCatz said:

what we need is more people actually using both so we can problem solve and brainstorm 

there are two very divided groups

the users who will never venture out of DAZ studio but want all these features 

then the people who hook up Blueprints like they are making a sandwich and are scripty wizards of great power wielding wands of C++ speaking in tongues we plebs cannot comprehend.

then

there is Wendy pushes buttons sees what happens and freezes her computer up .....

...wait that's 3 groups?

no two groups and lonely me

davidtriune

WendyLuvsCatz said:

what we need is more people actually using both so we can problem solve and brainstorm 

there are two very divided groups

the users who will never venture out of DAZ studio but want all these features 

then the people who hook up Blueprints like they are making a sandwich and are scripty wizards of great power wielding wands of C++ speaking in tongues we plebs cannot comprehend.

then

there is Wendy pushes buttons sees what happens and freezes her computer up .....

lol

outrider42

Leonides02 said:

I don't know, to me this is pretty impressive. Even if it's only rendering at, say, 1 FPS. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

And note this was running a system with a GTX 1080 and i7-7700 while outputting 1440p. Last generation technology, and not even the best of its generation. There is a growing list of GPUs as capable as a 1080 or better, and the 7700 is seriously old news.

Oh, and fire and magical effects. I have to point these things out anytime they come up, because while we can argue quality all day long or point to a low poly ash tray (LOL), the fact of the matter is that Iray cannot replicate these effects. Ever. No matter if you turn off SSS completely, or use Iray interactive (which look terrible BTW), or use low poly models...you cannot make these effects in a practical manner with Iray. At any resolution or any frame rate.

marble

outrider42 said:

Leonides02 said:

I don't know, to me this is pretty impressive. Even if it's only rendering at, say, 1 FPS. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

And note this was running a system with a GTX 1080 and i7-7700 while outputting 1440p. Last generation technology, and not even the best of its generation. There is a growing list of GPUs as capable as a 1080 or better, and the 7700 is seriously old news.

 

Way to make me feel inadequate with my GTX1070 and i7-6700!

outrider42

marble said:

outrider42 said:

Leonides02 said:

I don't know, to me this is pretty impressive. Even if it's only rendering at, say, 1 FPS. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

And note this was running a system with a GTX 1080 and i7-7700 while outputting 1440p. Last generation technology, and not even the best of its generation. There is a growing list of GPUs as capable as a 1080 or better, and the 7700 is seriously old news.

 

Way to make me feel inadequate with my GTX1070 and i7-6700!

Well, I have a two 1080tis, but your 6700 is much better and newer than my i5-4690. I haven't felt any need to upgrade my i5 as it doesn't matter for Daz, and I still get decent framerates in games at 1440p. But I plan on getting a Ryzen probably next year.

Mouser

I must admit I never thought about using a game engine to render Daz Studio or possibly a Poser scene.

It is definetly a quality of product versus delivery time question, which is needed for the result you need.

If your producing a pro video then a game engine probably wont cut it, but if its something that only requires good enough say a youtube video?

And yes my GPU is an even punior NVIDIA 1060.

Ellessarr

Mouser said:

I must admit I never thought about using a game engine to render Daz Studio or possibly a Poser scene.

It is definetly a quality of product versus delivery time question, which is needed for the result you need.

If your producing a pro video then a game engine probably wont cut it, but if its something that only requires good enough say a youtube video?

And yes my GPU is an even punior NVIDIA 1060.

it's depend for what you want, if is really just render then maybe daz is the better but if it's really a video like a cgi movie or trailer or things like that, you can actually produce a high level video using game engine, at last unreal engine, it's being build to not only "render for game" but also to "make movies", it's really strong to make movies but ofcourse you must have a really strong machine to do so in the same way you would need to have a strong pc to make disney movies and bla bla bla, i can't say for sure for others enginers like unity because it's not really my area of work but for sure for unreal i can say which you can get really awesome results the only problem is have the knowledge and "machine" to do so.

 

it's so which all the "epic games trailers and cinematic trailers are made full inside unreal, the only thing made outside unreal are the modeling but all animations and rendering are made full inside unreal in mane cases in real time.

 

here a exe,ple of a video made full imside unreal

https://www.youtu.be.com/watch?v=3wUVLYKPB6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh9msqaoJZw

windli3356

Flortale said:

The following is an Unreal Engine render, in which the following image takes one second to render:

The following is a DAZ STUDIO / NVIDIA IRAY RENDER, which can take up to 30 minutes or more:

What's going on here? I understand that Unreal Engine assets are optimized, but still, ONE second render vs 30 minute renders? Something is up guys.  Something is SEVERELY WRONG here.

If UNITY and Unreal Engine can produce high quality renders in less than a second, then there's no reason why NVIDIA IRAY can't adopt a mode, in which it operates at the same level as UNITY or Unreal ENgine, just for the sake of faster renders, for making animations for example.

I think companies like Unity & Unreal Engine shoudl get into the rendering business and compete against DAZ Studio, that would probably make DAZ Studio come up with a fast rendering solution.

Unreal & blender's ray tracing all faster than Iray by miles, but come on man it's not 1 sec.     my guess is that maybe because Daz's assets and materials all done by 3rd party vendors

davidtriune

windli3356 said:

Flortale said:

 

Unreal & blender's ray tracing all faster than Iray by miles, but come on man it's not 1 sec.     my guess is that maybe because Daz's assets and materials all done by 3rd party vendors

yea its not 1 sec.. its 1/30 of a second

Robinson

A lot of these images aren't compared and contrasted with their equivalent iray renders at full resolution, so it's impossible to say.  Then again some of them are showcases which engaged experts in modelling, animation, lighting, texturing and so on, and no doubt cost a lot of money to produce.  Then there's ease of use and the content library.  Daz's content library, across multiple sites, is huge.  Unreal's content library is pathetic.  Right now the engine is best made use of by studios who employ artists for big bucks to generate content for them.

Thing about RT in Unreal Engine though, is still extremely fiddly and difficult to get right, whereas in Daz it kind-of "just works".  Real-Time (I mean with a time constraint) Ray Tracing and static RT are converging pretty fast now though, with new hardware. 

I think the Holy Grail would be opening up an editor with Unreal Engine under the hood, seemless use of Daz characters and content, with RT on/off options.  That implies a new editor of course, which no doubt is a big sunk cost for Daz, so I don't expect I'll see it happen.   And no, I don't think Daz "exporter" is good enough at all.  We need extra machinery for JCMs and tessellation.  Base cage export into Unreal with normal maps just doesn't cut it now and will soon look kind-of quaint compared to game engine characters.

I'm thinking full-featured Unreal Engine plugin here, with content library, not this namby-pamby "export FBX" scripting nonsense. 

Ruphuss

how do you render an unreal game scene to make it a picture (jpg,png) ?

WendyLuvsCatz

Ruphuss said:

how do you render an unreal game scene to make it a picture (jpg,png) ?

screenshot 

F12 I think most games

or UE4 specifically 

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Basics/Screenshots/index.html