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I understand and agree with your assessment. From what I can gather, the key programmers who did Carrara 6/7/8 are still around but not employees of DAZ and I think they contract to them for work. These persons would be doing this inline of the other projects not related to DAZ. My understanding is that they were based out of France. (caveat: I could be completely wrong, it's like spywork stitching together comments made by people in the know)
At this point I'd be more surprised to see a Carrara 9, and less surprised to see a Vue 2015 xStream plugin for Daz Studio...
I'm still hoping Carrara 9 comes out with G3 support , and better support than the hit & miss G2 support 8.5 has right now (crashes when conforming more than 3 clothing pieces to a G2 figure).
I admit, I did scoop up Vue xStream 2015 when it was on sale a month or two ago. It handles fbx and daz collada characters just fine (just need to adjust the material settings - 100% reflection seems to get enabled on the materials on import) , and it's blowing my mind how easily its handling full Global Radiosity and Photometric Skies (several steps up from Global Illumination) when rendering outdoor scenes with heavy and dense trees and foilage... Something that Carrara outright chokes on even with a full 40 Xeon cores @ 3ghz - 3.6ghz and 64gb ram unless using a fake G.I via light rigs.
Yet I keep coming back to Carrara for alot of thigs. Its the program I know and been using for the past 8 yrs. :)
I'm trying to figure out if you're kidding about a Vue plugin for D|S...
A less-than-$2000 professional environment rendering app as a plugin for a free (ie, $0) 3D app designed for the hobbyist market ? I'm guessing the market for something like that would be kinda small, to say the least.
Heck, why not just buy the $600 version of Vue and composite the renders externally ? Seems a whole lot cheaper and more efficient and flexible.
Although those are only my opinions. Maybe you're right.
Your right that was just some tongue in cheek sillyness there. :)
(the surreal irony here is the likely hood of such a plugin would not only truly be the best of both worlds , but also the dethnel for carrara entirely, joining Bryce where it's at right now.)
I'm just looking at things at a broader picture. Where things are are at with carrara ; or rather the lack of effort being put into it versus a free app that's held center stage for the last few years getting every possible little improvement update , latest being G3 and Iray when carrara G2 support is hit and miss.
I was just musing that point exactly, a totally free app getting plug in support for a near $2000 high end landscape app more likely to happen than Carrara 9 with Daz-studio level of support and native functionality for the entire Genesis series. I never said anything about said Vue plugging being free or cheap tho.
It's just I've already tried Vue for comparison, even just for render engine performance - carrara has fallen behind seriously.
I spent an unhealthy amount of money for a 40 core render beast I use mostly for hobby (some occasional Profesional pre-visual on the side.) Then thought it would be the be-all-end-all solution for finally getting blazing fast render times full G.I and/or Indirect Lighting, soft shadows.
Well, I was blown away when not using vegetation (plants trees grass etc), and equally unimpressed when trying to render vegetation ...
So I tried Vue... loaded my G2 M6 in studio (was already morphed and clothed anyways since carrara has issues with conforming more than 3 cloths onto G2 anyways) , exported to Daz collar, loaded into vue, tweaked material shaders, posed character, and drawn in with a brush a whole forest of trees behind him and some in front for light effects such as God-Rays to occur. Added actual grass to the ground. Photometric sky preset and Global Radiosity enabled, used a render quality preset... less than 20 minutes later a lovely render appeared.
Yet having tried to do similar in the past, took a good 48 hours with full G.I in Carrara.
Month or two ago all versions of Vue were on sale, current versions for between 40-60% off. Was experimenting with the fully free and functional PLE version of xStream and decided to spend the ~$800.00 it was on sale for (regular ~$1699.00) for the ability to use all 40 cores.
I already spent near or around $900~ to Daz already for carrara's releases 6.x thru to 8.5 with little to no render engine improvement for outdoor tree and bush scenes. And lots more on content.
I figured I got Vue for a bargain at that sale price that let's me do more than what carrara let's me do. I have to cloth and morph my G1 - G3 characters already in studio and save out and then import (Sent a ticket to daz about that with carrara crashing , this was the official answer given) so at to hath is point it becomes a choice of which app do I want to import my characters in for outdoor landscape rendering?
Only caveat is also exporting the building sets and vehicles too from Daz if /when needed. Have a copy fbx and collada export folder structure setup on the hd now to use as I go.
Yet with all being said, I still use carrara for quite a bit of stuff, right now for some interior design I'm working on in my basement; and still help my online friends whom I've advocated carrara to them to buy , so it's a personal obligation as well. I've always loved carrara's easy to use shader system, near infinite possibilities. I miss that when using Vue (have to get comfortable using vue and find out what it can do for similar effect
That's perhaps that's the saddest part here. Daz has an amazing all in one solution for posable rigged character Content, modeling, and outdoor landscape generation and rendering , could be giving Vue a serious run for its money and price-point, as well as respectably show why it's a paid program vs Studio being a free and entry level program.
Carrara was that ideal program back when Legacy generation 3 and 4 content was the current content at the time. Native poser content browser, just install and browse/load , make scene, save/render. No extra hoops or steps for additional export content management.
The whole Genesis generation changed all that with G2 being the eye-opener and G3 being the catalyst. At least in my case.
I guess Daz 3d already saw that. Focus on being a content provider company, and develop a top of the line and Free program to use their content and draw in and expand their customer base two-fold. Those happy to begin with use the free software for rendering (and buying more content) and those now seasoned users or professionals able to use the software as as tool to port the content for use in other larger programs.
G3 is a noticable move in that direction , facial features once controlled by morph sliders transitioned over to bone & rigging. This really opens up the content for use in larger venues and d new markets from animation to gaming. Pre-made and highly customizable rigged content, plug in and begin production.Not blaming anyone here. Just a bummer for us little carrara fan base users.
;)I have used Carrara for years (since it was called Ray Dream Studio) for illustration for publications, developing product art, info-graphics, etc.
I also use Rhino 3D, Z-Brush and others in my work...
I consider all, including Carrara, as valuable tools and assets to my work flow...
That doesn't negate what they said about Daz3D as a company. They only develop Daz Studio, the rest is apparenlty outsourced. They don't even make content...(so when people say Daz3D is a content company, that's not even accurate depending on how you define it. They sell content sure..)
Doesn't mean you can't use the tools, but the company is a marketing company.
We are not aware that anything of the kind has been said.
For that to make sense it would have to work outside of Daz studio. Which it does not.
Well it does, just not in Carrara without going to a third party program first be it iClone 3Dxchange pipeline or UUW3D in my case, probably exported from Blender or 3DSmax it would work too but the direct FBX export is mangled in Carrara, the other apps open it ok and re-export in a way Carrara can load it correctly
the rigging doesn't work for me properly in FBX or DAE. I guess it makes sense it works in Iclone...as Daz and reallusion are buddies. But It didn't seem to work for me in UUW3D, what format are you using when you load it into UUW3D?
Cannot find out now, no desktop sadly but am certain an UUW3D export worked, I know it did load rigged in Blender too but I did not re-export.
seems to be the FBX format itself as the same holds true for many others from other sources like Mixamo.
I am hoping when my desktop comes back home Iray may be a better proposition for me too, may actually use DAZ studio with the 980ti card as more will fit on it. I just dislike using the UI
I guess I'll try UUW3D format when I get home.
Hopefully your desktop will be back soon :)
I meant re-exported as FBX fro Ultimate Unwrap 3D
So do you save it from daz as a UUW3D file, then open in UU3D and resave as FBX? Or Daz >Fbx> UUW3D>FBX. Thanks again.
I just have had some quirks with using a FBX that daz creates, like rigging isn't so good and/or doesn't work at all. Marvelous Designer doesn't support the new G3F rigging, so I have to use a different workflow for G3F compared to G2F.
No just FBX in all cases, iClone 3dx5 too, just in the DAZ studio exported form all figures not just Genesis 3 import into Carrara messed up. It is an issue with Carrara's FBX import that does not happen quite as much from some other apps as it does from DS, I have no idea why.
there is obviously something different about the FBX format.
okie dokie, thanks. I'll see what happens when i get home.
when i export fbx and open with UUW3D, there is no mesh. and I can see the breast bones are backwards, just like in Unity :( So I think it's a DS issue.
For clarification, DAZ is NOT a "marketing company". They are a 3D content and related (eg, 3D printing, etc.) consumer sales company. There's a difference.
They surely have a marketing department, or maybe an outsourced marketing function, but that is only the part of the company that defines who the customers are and how best to communicate with them and tell them how awesome their products are. But DAZ does far more than just marketing.
Also for clarification, "outsourcing" is extremely common in the business world today. Often it is the rule, rather than the exception with many businesses. Especially with software development.
If a company can contract with another software development company who can do it better and cheaper, they will. One example is the HUGE software development industry in India and other countries right now. Especially with software, which is nothing but bits and bytes, it's easy to send your stuff to India, have them work on it while you're sleeping, and when you wake up they send the code they developed for your review. And that's just software. The same thing is done in virtually every industry nowadays. Even visual effects. And engineering. And so on. It becomes an integral part of the company, and the only difference is that the work is performed in some distant location.
So the distinction between "the company does it" and "it's outsourced" has become nonexistent in many ways.
I know a lot about content, marketing, software and outsourcing :)
There strength is actually their marketing.(and I would argue Daz Studio too, I think it's a very good tool).
They don't really make content, they do make one software package...they surely sell content. But I don't consider them a content company because anytime you make content request it falls on deaf ears. We get the excuse "We depend on PAs to do this, or that"
They market 3D content others make. They seem powerless in the content space. Not really a position a true content company would be in :) But I understand your point, I still think it's better to get people exposed to the idea Daz is much less of a content company than people give them credit for.
For example in my city, the city provides all the gas for homes that recieve gas via the pipelines. There are "gas companies" that sell gas to residents. But in fact they are not gas companies, they are legally defined as remarketers. They resell the cities gas to residents, even though they city is actually the one providing the gas and maintaining the system. We typically call these remarketers gas companies, and most people don't realize the city is doing the real work. While the remarketers may exclusively resell gas, they aren't the gas companies many consumers believe they are.
It's all about perspective.
yes you are right, I think I opened the iclone FBX export in UUW3D before, I get the same result
dunno if Autodesk FBX convertor can fix it
thanks for trying. I will accept defeat for now.
Lars, I get your point. One of their strengths is marketing.
But in the business world I think most are interested in "how do these guys get revenue?", and define them based on the answer. In your example, a gas company, whether reseller or remarketer or whatever is somewhat irrelevant to the main point that they make their revenue selling gas. So they are a gas company. DAZ makes their revenue selling content and related stuff. So they are a content sales company. If you think about it, most companies nowadays are resellers of stuff. WalMart (AFAIK) doesn't make anything, they just resell stuff. And their marketing effort is HUGE. But still, they are a retail sales company.
But you have a good point...if you're interest is "what are they good at, or what are their strengths?", then yeah, they're mostly a marketing company.
I suppose the precise terminology is also somewhat irrelevant here, I was just pointing out a minor clarification. And, I'm sure, annoying everyone in the process...
My apologies.....
As far as whether they make content internally or not, I'm not sure. I realize that most of the content they sell is make by 3rd party "PA's", though I'm sure they also do a lot of the design and development work on the new figures (genesis, etc.) is "in house", or at least thru a development contract. But like I say, in the business world of today whether you do stuff in the same building with company employees, vs. under contract to another firm or individual contract employees is somewhat irrelevant.
I agree with you and have to say on whole you're both right, but once DAZ purchases the right to content its their DAZ content whether they had it done in house or not so their catalog of products is quite large. I'm curious to see if they can leverage that library into a major licensing agreement.
Also today most companies a customer might deal with are actually resellers of product produced by someone else. Look at your car, the parts are made by various parts manufacturers and assembled by your car company. Look at the paper in your books. The pulp is made by company A, used to manufacture paper by company B, refined and converted by company C, printed by company D, and bound by company E, which sends it to a distributor contracted by a publisher for sale by amazon/retailer. In this scenario the publisher is considered the manufacturer.
You know I have supported and enjoyed Carrara for many years. I actually jumped on board when it was showcased in 3D world magazine many years ago - right about the time that Daz3d took it over. I find it hard to blindly say "lets just enjoy it" as others on this post. After the years of supporting updates (actually funding the development of Daz studio) I feel absolutely abandoned by a company who took my money (given because of my loyalty to Carrara) and funelled it to the development of Daz Studio. I'm sad to say it but I really dont want to vest my time in a software that may not be here tomorrow. As is, I will never purchase another item from Daz3d. They broke trust. Why would anyone continue to support a company that treat their own customers with such direguard. blows my mind. I've stated it before - I wish Carrara had stayed with a company that had the vision and fortitude to take it to the top.
Just keep in mind that "...may not be here tomorrow" probably isn't the case. Barring any unforseen issues with, say, new versions of operating systems or whatever, I'm guessing that Carrara will still function on your computer for a long time to come. Someone did mention an issue with Windows 10, but I never heard what the result was. Maybe unrelated to Windows 10. I hope so.
What I've suggested is that users decide what their wants and needs are, and if Carrara in its present state isn't meeting those needs then look elsewhere. But IMO Carrara does have one strength, and that is rendering characters. So I will continue to use it for that, and then composite those renders into all the other stuff I need, generated in different apps.
My biggest challenge has been the inability to use the Bullet cloth feature with moving objects, as well as some other cloth limitiations. And that is the main thing that is making me consider jumping ship completely with Carrara
But those issues aside, I think the smart move is to identify the tools you need and composite it all together. I even posted a very long and detailed thread showing folks how to do that with some excellent free compositing software. And also a thread showing how to make an excellent and free 3D app (Blender), which has most of the awesome new features that many users are looking for, more user-friendly and much more like Carrara.
So really there's no need to jump ship, just use each tool for it's strengths.
I feel pretty much the same way. I still enjoy using Carrara, but I've lost respect for DAZ.
My workflow with Carrara at it's heart for what it's worth..
1. Scene set up / modelling / character creation (M4/V4/M3/V3). CARRARA 8.1 (not 8.5 by choice), using my poser runtime.
2. Raw animation. In DAZ (whatever the latest version is) using the ANIMATE plugin to create raw aniblocks.
3. Refined animation in CARRARA 8.1. Some excellent animation tools. The only area of development I'd like to see sped up is the physics.
4. Test Render and final render in CARRARA 8.1 via the OCTANE plug in. The plug-in is constantly being improved, and gives thoroughly proffesional results. (Plus as each year passes you get more GPU speed for your money).
So my argument is DAZ is constantly being worked on, I'm being upgraded for free there, Carrara is stuck in 8.1, but apart from physics who cares? It does all it needs to. The final result (Octane) is being improved all the time (mainly for free).
I'm good for my working life time. I'll stick with a certain level of windows if I have to.
:)
Good points, I feel pretty much the same. One question, you use Aniblocks in DAZ Studio, does that have advantages over the aniMate aniBlock Importer for Carrara? I'm using the latter and saving them as Carrara clips, seems to work pretty well.
Every time I read on a forum that someone's trust has been broken by a company or they feel the company has let them down, I feel sad for them.
Put your trust in people not entities. Companies contain people, but these people will behave differently in business decisions that they do in private decisions (assuming they enjoy receiving a paycheque). Remember Carrara fits in market niche filled with many 3D modeling alternatives. It is a great package but it will not generate an investment to revenue ratio that exceeds what it takes to make or resell 3D content which is cheaper and less complicated to do and has a ten fold great customer base to DAZ. As long as Daz sees a value in supporting Carrara to its overall sales growth they will develop it. I think it still does but it's low on the list.
So if is not the hot product, and may one day they cease development, then what?
Well for starters as has already been mentioned it works and can do most jobs.
If you want realistic renders use Luxus or Octane plug-ins or get Phils Wilkes tutorial on Realistic Renders [ http://www.daz3d.com/carrara-realism-rendering-training-video ] (note to PhilW don't forget to send me those endorsement cheques next week).
It is still a great way to learn the fundamentals of 3D modeling. There are many tutorials available to teach you need to know.
Everything you learn is transferable knowledge to other 3D products. When it is on sale it is a great deal. I bought the program and the tutorials when they were more than 60% off (yeah me).
Consider watching this documentary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(film)
If even you disagree with what is presented or how they present it or believe they go too far with their conclusions all that may be true, but still the fact remains a company is an entity formed to make profit first and everything else second.