[Released] Character Converter from Genesis 3 Female to Genesis 8 Female(Now Conv JCMs) [Commercial]

dawnblade

ZarconDeeGrissom said:

that actually looks like it's the fingernail map superimposed to the face bump or displacement.

I also have Akimitsu and when I was looking at just the converted mesh shape, I hadn't noticed anything quite like that. it may be a simple map confusion mistake.

depending on if your using the regular brows or Vulcan brows will depend on what bump you want there, "AkimitsuFaceB" in the bump slot for the face, not the fingernail thing. I'm not seeing anything like that with the iray-apply mats, maybe it's a 3DL conversion mistake, or maps just got 'mixed up' somewhere.  I have to force the nail map into the face bump to duplicate that for her on G3F.

And agreed, I am greatly appreciating RiverSoftArt's work.

Wow @ZarconDeeGrissom! That is it!  My Iray version of her has an arm and nail material as her face base bump. Very odd. I've used her before and never ran into that. Well, the only thing I can try is to uninstall/reinstall her and see if that fixes it. Otherwise, I don't know what else to do. Thank you!

dawnblade

Uninstalling/installing Akimitsu through DIM didn't fix the problem. She still has AkimitsuArmsB_1004.jpg as her face base bump material, with a 1.50 setting. If anyone knows how to set her to the correct material so that she loads correctly, please pm me. I don't want to hijack this thread. Thanks again @ZarconDeeGrissom!

ZarconDeeGrissom

ok, that is a prob, not in any of the "material presets" in the content library where I was looking. it is only the (not so) Smart Tab load the full figure DUF that has the issue with a single map slot.  saving the Duf again isn't too difficult after putting the proper map there, it's the metadata on Daz's end to get the fixed DUF back into the (not so) Smart tab.

To think I got this in 2016, and never noticed that, despite doing a lot with the figure. I tend to do dial mixing, and I do find some (not so) Smart tab DUFs somehow set dial 'reset' value to not-off rather than just set the dial strength, makes dial spinning a bit of a pain. I have had some chats with Silver in the past over similar minor 'mistakes' and she is rather willing to make things right, the difficulty is convincing Daz's DIM backend to issue out the fixed install packages (I have some V7 stuff from other PAs that still hasn't been updated through DIM yet, despite them being patched within a month of launch).

Edit, Jessaii or something like that now, my bad, silver is an old name.

dawnblade

I load characters through the main content directory, not smart content. Strange it works for you there. We should both submit tickets. Daz has fixed older products. I'll check loading through smart content tomorrow. Thanks! 

RiverSoft Art

dawnblade said:

Thanks for this cool tool! Just got it, and I'm working my way through my characters until I get RedzStudio's UV set you mentioned in the video. I even blew my $6 coupon on stuff I really didn't need. If I would have just held out a few minutes longer, I could have used it on the UV set! 

Question on converting Akimitsu for G3F. Notice the vertical strips on her forehead after converting her character. This is with the default settings, but the same happened when I lowered the tolerance so I just went back to the default settings.

Then I applied one of her G3 makeup styles after conversion, and the vertical bands went away. However, is there anything in your script I could have done to eliminate the banding of the default skin (in case I wanted to use the default skin only)? Also, does it make sense to convert the character first, then apply the makeup after? Or should I apply the skin, make-up, eye colors etc. before converting?

Thanks for your help!

 

Huh, I think @ZarconDeeGrissom is right (thanks for the help).  Can you try just fixing the bump map after loading?  I don't have that character unfortunately, but I will look at the code to see what might be going wrong.

ZarconDeeGrissom

it's not your code River, the smart tab DUF load the full figure DUF is bad.  your thing is just converting maps over as it was (correctly), it's just being fed junk-in.

ye can swap out the map in the surface tab, then go and resave the (think it's) Character preset (?) to save the fixed character config. It's just that it won't end up in the smart tab unless Daz creates the metadata for the corrected character DUF. Nothing that you can fix River, it's on Silver rrr Jessaii and daz this time.

dawnblade

OK that worked for her facial material! I changed the bump material and saved her character file over the existing file.

Ran Character Converter and other than her eyes, which I'm trying to get right, the conversion went well.

For her eyes, I've tried default settings, legacy with .005, and default settings with .005 but can't get her eyes right yet. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

RiverSoft Art

dawnblade said:

OK that worked for her facial material! I changed the bump material and saved her character file over the existing file.

Ran Character Converter and other than her eyes, which I'm trying to get right, the conversion went well.

For her eyes, I've tried default settings, legacy with .005, and default settings with .005 but can't get her eyes right yet. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

Try the legacy process.  When using Legacy process, make sure Hide Eyes is UNCHECKED.  And push the tolerance one ZERO less 0.0005

RiverSoft Art

ZarconDeeGrissom said:

it's not your code River, the smart tab DUF load the full figure DUF is bad.  your thing is just converting maps over as it was (correctly), it's just being fed junk-in.

ye can swap out the map in the surface tab, then go and resave the (think it's) Character preset (?) to save the fixed character config. It's just that it won't end up in the smart tab unless Daz creates the metadata for the corrected character DUF. Nothing that you can fix River, it's on Silver rrr Jessaii and daz this time.

Thank you for your help!

dawnblade

RiverSoftArt said:

dawnblade said:

OK that worked for her facial material! I changed the bump material and saved her character file over the existing file.

Ran Character Converter and other than her eyes, which I'm trying to get right, the conversion went well.

For her eyes, I've tried default settings, legacy with .005, and default settings with .005 but can't get her eyes right yet. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

Try the legacy process.  When using Legacy process, make sure Hide Eyes is UNCHECKED.  And push the tolerance one ZERO less 0.0005

Thanks for these settings! Here is how she rendered. I turned off the specular eye light b/c it was making the white around the iris very bright.

 

RiverSoft Art

dawnblade said:

RiverSoftArt said:

dawnblade said:

OK that worked for her facial material! I changed the bump material and saved her character file over the existing file.

Ran Character Converter and other than her eyes, which I'm trying to get right, the conversion went well.

For her eyes, I've tried default settings, legacy with .005, and default settings with .005 but can't get her eyes right yet. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

Try the legacy process.  When using Legacy process, make sure Hide Eyes is UNCHECKED.  And push the tolerance one ZERO less 0.0005

Thanks for these settings! Here is how she rendered. I turned off the specular eye light b/c it was making the white around the iris very bright.

 

So that ring will not go away?  That is a shame. 

ZarconDeeGrissom

think the difficulty was the oblong oval shape of the iris. that ring really looks like gloss from a 'soft' ring light or gray skydome. I am literally not getting that ring on gen7 or gen8, the iris goes out to the Sclera completely on gen7 and 8. the only time eyes gave me UV misalignment grief was prior to gen7 (oh, there is some edge alignment offset with the gen8 equipment).

maybe the iris is inside and the uh, no, need coffee, maybe the iris is on the cornea or eye-moister layer (shrugs) that could be, eye moister is a sep thing with eyelashes now, so mats won't apply to them (or is that surface shader, BC, before coffee) unless you select the lashes in the scene tab and maybe even select them in the surface tab, DS is a bit flaky with that. To complicate things, I don't know much about Iray and have forgotten what most of the settings do, cuz simply put, most of the ship models I have won't fit in the memory on most affordable Nvidia GPUs. eons ago I made a set of alt 3DL shaders because AoA was just not good for me, I need to go through that and see if I can reproduce that as my first attempt at converting Akimisu went mostly flawlessly aside from the mentioned surface zone object allocations. it looks like reflection is at 100% on something it shouldn't be also (in dawnblade's render).

Some, for 3DL, and for gen7, not 8. the separate gen8 lashes/eyemonster obj may take some work.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c97bzprx0szpwxt/ZdgGen7AltShaderExpPack01_v000v.zip?dl=0

Presets will not work unless you have the figure, maps not included, there only presets.

FYI, D6 not included, that was a fan-made model of a fan flic ship that has 'many' probs, lol.

dawnblade

Thanks again for your help and nice render @ZarconDeeGrissom. I haven't used 3Delight in a couple years since I upgraded my computer, but I may give it a try in situations like this. I too think her eyes are just very stylized, and I just got started and definitely plan to keep converting G3F characters to G8F! 

RiverSoft Art

dawnblade said:

Thanks again for your help and nice render @ZarconDeeGrissom. I haven't used 3Delight in a couple years since I upgraded my computer, but I may give it a try in situations like this. I too think her eyes are just very stylized, and I just got started and definitely plan to keep converting G3F characters to G8F! 

Great!  And keep posting questions and results!    (and thank you too @ZarconDeeGrissom)

N-RArts

ZarconDeeGrissom said:

they are sort of saved already as indicated in the tutorial vid for this thing, there dials in the parameters tab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hugxqRo2gJA

if you're talking about a "character preset" DUF file and not saving the dial again, sure that was covered in the beginning of the vid, think, or was it over on SY's transfer thing, hmmm.

sorry, my brain is still sort of melted from overwork trying to figure out how I made a controler dial for a dial spun body, my comp has crashed 3 times now from having too many tabs open, and Grammerly has completely stopped working, lol.

- dial in your figure you want to save, then...

10.  Navigate to the People--Genesis 2 Female--Characters folder in your Content Library (corection, gen 8 Female).  Right-click and choose Create Subfolder.  Name it after your character.

11.  In this folder, click the little plus sign at the bottom of the Content Library screen.  Choose Shaping Preset.  Click Accept. (corection, name it, then click accept)

 

As for saving the dials, well, if you 'must' save it again (I doubt this is what your asking for)...

1, write down the 'name' and where the dial is (actor -> People - ...)

the script appears to dump it's controller dial in just 'people' however all the mesh-shape dials can be just about anywhere, best to use that search box to help find them by typing in letters and clicking through path-names below till it appears in one branch and not a lower one. search will make the tree names that have similar dial-name be brighter than the others to help as well. And write it all down before opening that save dial thing, once it's open you can't go back to find something (without starting over).

Make sure the dials you are saving are set to zero, otherwise genesis will load with it dialed in every time you load a new genesis figure.

'File > Save > Morph asset'

when the window pops up, you'll need to enter the somewhat confusing info up top including what content path (Daz store or personal, your drive letters&path will be dif from my screencaps, and your names) to save it. the triangles below under G8F should be an Actor etc as the path you noted in step 1. if you don't see it, maybe there are some letters before the dial name like 'FHM' or 'FBM' etc.

I'm sorry if I know nothing more, I blindly click what Sickleyield tutorials said click and pray it goes someplace I can find it to back it up and works.

*note1, because the script already saves the dials, ye may likely end up with duplicates if you don't go in and remover the dials on the drive that the script made after 'saving' them elsewhere. it's a bit of a sticky mess. it's easier to leave it be, dial in your character and apply the mats of choice, then just save that as a scene subset, alleviates a lot of hard drive hunting grief.

(PS, don't get excited about the name of the head dials in my screencaps. that was a fail shape conversion at the Gen6 to Gen7 boundary, for 'many' reasons. cheekbones do somersaults, eyes spin like propeller props, pupils shaped like Ultima Thule, the eyes go up behind the eyebrows, the jaw pokes through the chin, some dial replacements don't go negative like Androgynous post gen6, 4k or 8k G8F-UV'ed maps have yet to see the light of day, I don't have a 3D paint app to remake the maps from scratch, etc. sobbing on desk exclaiming "Fred can you pleas pleas..." lol)

 

Oh, that odd leg shape, maybe a dial being dialed in twice, aka 2x strength. I had seen that fluke before, the fix was to convert it another way fewer dials spun per convert and converting each figure area separately (dial-in only the head, convert that. then clear it all, dial in the body only, then convert that.). *and keep the elf/cat ear dials independent of anything else, or they will break hair with the auto-follow thing.

 

RiverSoftArt said:

Character presets are not saved with the "Convert Scene Character script".  There will be a dial in your character's name though to dial up all the morphs that make up your character. 

For the warping, check out which morphs are being used.  You might, as @ZarconDeeGrissom mentioned, have converted more than once or something and extra morphs are being engaged.  Check out your My Library (first directory in Content Directory Manager for Daz format files)/Data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 8/Females.  This is where all the converted morphs are going.  You can delete the morphs used for Lilith and then try the script again.

 

Thank you for the help, both of you. I deleted all of the morphs and started over. So far, I've converted one of my own characters, Arabella 7, and Lilith 7. I haven't done any renders though (I've had other things going on).  Thanks again :)

RiverSoft Art

N_R Arts said:

ZarconDeeGrissom said:

they are sort of saved already as indicated in the tutorial vid for this thing, there dials in the parameters tab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hugxqRo2gJA

if you're talking about a "character preset" DUF file and not saving the dial again, sure that was covered in the beginning of the vid, think, or was it over on SY's transfer thing, hmmm.

sorry, my brain is still sort of melted from overwork trying to figure out how I made a controler dial for a dial spun body, my comp has crashed 3 times now from having too many tabs open, and Grammerly has completely stopped working, lol.

- dial in your figure you want to save, then...

10.  Navigate to the People--Genesis 2 Female--Characters folder in your Content Library (corection, gen 8 Female).  Right-click and choose Create Subfolder.  Name it after your character.

11.  In this folder, click the little plus sign at the bottom of the Content Library screen.  Choose Shaping Preset.  Click Accept. (corection, name it, then click accept)

 

As for saving the dials, well, if you 'must' save it again (I doubt this is what your asking for)...

1, write down the 'name' and where the dial is (actor -> People - ...)

the script appears to dump it's controller dial in just 'people' however all the mesh-shape dials can be just about anywhere, best to use that search box to help find them by typing in letters and clicking through path-names below till it appears in one branch and not a lower one. search will make the tree names that have similar dial-name be brighter than the others to help as well. And write it all down before opening that save dial thing, once it's open you can't go back to find something (without starting over).

Make sure the dials you are saving are set to zero, otherwise genesis will load with it dialed in every time you load a new genesis figure.

'File > Save > Morph asset'

when the window pops up, you'll need to enter the somewhat confusing info up top including what content path (Daz store or personal, your drive letters&path will be dif from my screencaps, and your names) to save it. the triangles below under G8F should be an Actor etc as the path you noted in step 1. if you don't see it, maybe there are some letters before the dial name like 'FHM' or 'FBM' etc.

I'm sorry if I know nothing more, I blindly click what Sickleyield tutorials said click and pray it goes someplace I can find it to back it up and works.

*note1, because the script already saves the dials, ye may likely end up with duplicates if you don't go in and remover the dials on the drive that the script made after 'saving' them elsewhere. it's a bit of a sticky mess. it's easier to leave it be, dial in your character and apply the mats of choice, then just save that as a scene subset, alleviates a lot of hard drive hunting grief.

(PS, don't get excited about the name of the head dials in my screencaps. that was a fail shape conversion at the Gen6 to Gen7 boundary, for 'many' reasons. cheekbones do somersaults, eyes spin like propeller props, pupils shaped like Ultima Thule, the eyes go up behind the eyebrows, the jaw pokes through the chin, some dial replacements don't go negative like Androgynous post gen6, 4k or 8k G8F-UV'ed maps have yet to see the light of day, I don't have a 3D paint app to remake the maps from scratch, etc. sobbing on desk exclaiming "Fred can you pleas pleas..." lol)

 

Oh, that odd leg shape, maybe a dial being dialed in twice, aka 2x strength. I had seen that fluke before, the fix was to convert it another way fewer dials spun per convert and converting each figure area separately (dial-in only the head, convert that. then clear it all, dial in the body only, then convert that.). *and keep the elf/cat ear dials independent of anything else, or they will break hair with the auto-follow thing.

 

RiverSoftArt said:

Character presets are not saved with the "Convert Scene Character script".  There will be a dial in your character's name though to dial up all the morphs that make up your character. 

For the warping, check out which morphs are being used.  You might, as @ZarconDeeGrissom mentioned, have converted more than once or something and extra morphs are being engaged.  Check out your My Library (first directory in Content Directory Manager for Daz format files)/Data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 8/Females.  This is where all the converted morphs are going.  You can delete the morphs used for Lilith and then try the script again.

 

Thank you for the help, both of you. I deleted all of the morphs and started over. So far, I've converted one of my own characters, Arabella 7, and Lilith 7. I haven't done any renders though (I've had other things going on).  Thanks again :)

Good luck!  And let us know how it is going!

RobertDy

I bought this and am trying to convert a G3F character that has incorrect metadata. So I unchecked the 'Check Content Type' box like the software says, but when I click on 'Force Convert' it just says nothing is selected even though all files I manually added are checked. What's happening? Edit: attachment for details.

RiverSoft Art

RobertDy said:

I bought this and am trying to convert a G3F character that has incorrect metadata. So I unchecked the 'Check Content Type' box like the software says, but when I click on 'Force Convert' it just says nothing is selected even though all files I manually added are checked. What's happening? Edit: attachment for details.

For the Force Convert, you need to actually select an item, i.e., click on one of the items so it is highlighted, not just checked.

ZarconDeeGrissom

yeah, windows and daz have been a tad annoying with minor things like that. for example, I used to be able to go to a dial's properties, click a limit number to highlight it, then just type in a new number and press enter, and daz would apply the new dial limit.

now when I press enter it just changes the mouse cursor to a white circle with a red line through it that I then need to randomly click a few more times on the dial property window before it will change back to a normal mouse cursor so It will let me click the apply button. (I don't know if that was net framework that changed, or daz studio 4.12)  It's almost like 'there' deliberately trying to make everything need more clicking just to accomplish anything, lol.   That highlight thing did get me the first time as well in G3F-toG8F, and it also confused me day-one with what was clicked as well for something (think it was converted from highlighted, or something like that), I did figure it out after playing a few times with a test folder before doing actual conversions.

P.S. mouse curser Photoshoped into the screencap to show what it looks like, as windows won't let me screencap the mouse curser. Grrr, lol.

RiverSoft Art

ZarconDeeGrissom said:

yeah, windows and daz have been a tad annoying with minor things like that. for example, I used to be able to go to a dial's properties, click a limit number to highlight it, then just type in a new number and press enter, and daz would apply the new dial limit.

now when I press enter it just changes the mouse cursor to a white circle with a red line through it that I then need to randomly click a few more times on the dial property window before it will change back to a normal mouse cursor so It will let me click the apply button. (I don't know if that was net framework that changed, or daz studio 4.12)  It's almost like 'there' deliberately trying to make everything need more clicking just to accomplish anything, lol.   That highlight thing did get me the first time as well in G3F-toG8F, and it also confused me day-one with what was clicked as well for something (think it was converted from highlighted, or something like that), I did figure it out after playing a few times with a test folder before doing actual conversions.

P.S. mouse curser Photoshoped into the screencap to show what it looks like, as windows won't let me screencap the mouse curser. Grrr, lol.

I haven't been having that multi-mouse click issue in DS 4.12.  That is weird.  

I can't blame DS changes for the highlighting.  That is how I designed it.  The Execute button is for going through the list top to bottom.  The other buttons (execute from selected, convert, force convert, etc) are for dealing from the list at where you have selected it.

captainklutz_a2ec859073

I'm really hoping for a V4 to G8F version of this product. :)

RiverSoft Art

captainklutz_a2ec859073 said:

I'm really hoping for a V4 to G8F version of this product. :)

It's in my to-do list. 

captainklutz_a2ec859073

That is very good news.

Thanks for the information.

:)

 

N-RArts

 

RiverSoftArt said:

Good luck!  And let us know how it is going!

 

Thanks ^^

Its taken a little while, mainly because I've been doing other things, but: 

This is my Lilith 7/8 conversion: https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/889396/

And this is my Arabella 7/8 conversion: https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/893441/

Apologies if they are looking a little "weird". I was messing around with the skin settings on both of them (although I'm not sure if I like the look of the skin though).

 

RiverSoft Art

N_R Arts said:

 

RiverSoftArt said:

Good luck!  And let us know how it is going!

 

Thanks ^^

Its taken a little while, mainly because I've been doing other things, but: 

This is my Lilith 7/8 conversion: https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/889396/

And this is my Arabella 7/8 conversion: https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/893441/

Apologies if they are looking a little "weird". I was messing around with the skin settings on both of them (although I'm not sure if I like the look of the skin though).

 

Thank you for sharing!

garrettg11

Hello, 

Are folks having success with this tool? All my g3 to g8 converts end up with bad eye distortion. After churning the manual and the entirety of this thread... I've tried all the {hide eyes, legacy, tolerance value tweaking, etc} numerous times and combinations. The results end up generally the same if I'm doing in scene convert, or character file convert scripts, which is squished eyeballs.

Is that the accepted result standard? I see people have posted some 'success' pictures to this thread, but mostly they are distance views, and maybe had some post work done.

I'm just trying to use it with general G3 female realistic human characters, no stylized, no creatures, etc.

Anyone have any suggestions or tips to resolve this? I just need to be able to have a normal g8 eyeball, and don't care about the g3 texture either. Or some manual steps I could do afterward to put in a proper eyeball?

I've attached some example results. If people say it works for them without eye squish, please give some character names from the catalog I could try.

Thanks for your help

 

Mouser

Finally got around to using this sucker and it performes well (slow) but well.

Unfortunatly running multiple instances of DazStudio doesnt seem to work with this sript (clothing & Hair does) as it defaults to only one core but it works.

Textures as per the PDF mentions are an issue but I lazily just used Genesis 8 textures instead.

The only issue I have had so far is the extreme shapes such as Star3's eye textures, has anyone thought up a solution to this?

Otherwise like this script;)

 

MelissaGT

garrettg11 said:

Hello, 

Are folks having success with this tool? All my g3 to g8 converts end up with bad eye distortion. After churning the manual and the entirety of this thread... I've tried all the {hide eyes, legacy, tolerance value tweaking, etc} numerous times and combinations. The results end up generally the same if I'm doing in scene convert, or character file convert scripts, which is squished eyeballs.

Is that the accepted result standard? I see people have posted some 'success' pictures to this thread, but mostly they are distance views, and maybe had some post work done.

I'm just trying to use it with general G3 female realistic human characters, no stylized, no creatures, etc.

Anyone have any suggestions or tips to resolve this? I just need to be able to have a normal g8 eyeball, and don't care about the g3 texture either. Or some manual steps I could do afterward to put in a proper eyeball?

I've attached some example results. If people say it works for them without eye squish, please give some character names from the catalog I could try.

Thanks for your help

 

It definitely works better on some characters than others, and some will work with a lot of experimentation. For example, Victoria 7 and Olympia 7 both converted with default settings no problem. Ophelia 7 took a lot lot lot of tweaking and what eventually worked was using the legacy method with 'hide eyes' unchecked and a tolerance of .0004. I've had the same problems as you with both females and males and I still cannot get Darius 7 to convert without that distortion no matter what combination of settings I use. My guess is that some characters just won't go. 

RiverSoft Art

garrettg11 said:

Hello, 

Are folks having success with this tool? All my g3 to g8 converts end up with bad eye distortion. After churning the manual and the entirety of this thread... I've tried all the {hide eyes, legacy, tolerance value tweaking, etc} numerous times and combinations. The results end up generally the same if I'm doing in scene convert, or character file convert scripts, which is squished eyeballs.

Is that the accepted result standard? I see people have posted some 'success' pictures to this thread, but mostly they are distance views, and maybe had some post work done.

I'm just trying to use it with general G3 female realistic human characters, no stylized, no creatures, etc.

Anyone have any suggestions or tips to resolve this? I just need to be able to have a normal g8 eyeball, and don't care about the g3 texture either. Or some manual steps I could do afterward to put in a proper eyeball?

I've attached some example results. If people say it works for them without eye squish, please give some character names from the catalog I could try.

Thanks for your help

 

First, I am SOOOOooo sorry.  I don't know how I missed this post.  There is some slight eye distortion.  But for normal eyes, there shouldn't be much.  The legacy method, with hide eyes unchecked and low, low tolerance (0.0005), generally gives good results.

RiverSoft Art

Mouser said:

Finally got around to using this sucker and it performes well (slow) but well.

Unfortunatly running multiple instances of DazStudio doesnt seem to work with this sript (clothing & Hair does) as it defaults to only one core but it works.

Textures as per the PDF mentions are an issue but I lazily just used Genesis 8 textures instead.

The only issue I have had so far is the extreme shapes such as Star3's eye textures, has anyone thought up a solution to this?

Otherwise like this script;)

 

I am glad you like it.  Star is going to be a problem probably.  Those eyes make it difficult.  All I can suggest is playing with the 2 methods, and for the legacy method (uncheck hide eyes and really low tolerance, 0.0005 or less.